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Forum:Anthony Genovese

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Memory Alpha:Pages for deletion/Anthony Genovese (part 1)

Deletion rationale

I can find no legitimate sources for Anthony Genovese's involvement in either the new Star Trek film, or any of the past series. His IMDB entry does not list any of these items, nor does it corroborate most of the credits claimed in the article. Furthmore, the "interview" listed under external links has no attribution, and appears to have been written by the subject himself - it's hosted on his own site. Given this individual's checkered past (see the IMDB message boards for Hidden Frontier - he posts there as Oscar-35) and problems with telling the truth, I think any page listing his as being connected to Star Trek without verifiable evidence (independent of the subject himself) is quite premature. FourPike 19:59, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Keep for now. I think it was premature to suggest this for deletion, with no discussion on the page in question. There should be some amount of discussion and time to find sources first. If no sources were found, then this could be brought back for deletion. I also find it curious that the very first thing the user who suggested this does after he registers is start removing the individual in question from MA. They may have a good reason, but it does seem odd.--31dot 20:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I happened to stumble across this site while double checking something else. I'm frankly at a loss as to how this page was created in the first place, as Genovese is not listed on IMDB, and has a history of trying to insert himself into other productions. The IMDB staff itself has even told him point blank that they do not find his own list of contributions credible. Of this article's two external links, one doesn't list him, and the other is his own website. Rather odd, I'd say. FourPike 20:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Um, Did you look at the pages cited to his page: [1] or [2]? The latter link is an interview with him that clearly states: "I am a industry set builder with among others five years at Paramount. I crewed with Tom Arp and Star Trek set designer, Herman Zimmerman on numerous seasons of Star Trek: The Next Generation & early Voyager seasons. I specifically fabricated ST:TNG various holodeck scenes and the Voyager's holodeck French pub set called, 'Sandrines"." Keep. I would also suggest removing the links to his name after the page is deleted, if it gets deleted, not now. --Alan 20:18, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I did look at them. The first is in a language I can't identify, but seems to reference IMDB - however, IMDB does not list him - can someone post a translation of the article? As to the "interview", standards for reliable sources should be neutral third party sites, which that is not - it's Genovese's own website, and there's no attribution there as to where this "interview" came from. And if his claims about his career are true, why then does his IMDB listing not jibe with that? Something's fishy there. A Google search on him turns up no independent backing for those claims either. By Wikipedia standards, this page would have been speedy deleted in a heartbeat for lack of reliable sources. FourPike 20:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
IMDB is not the know all, be all. There are literally dozens of actors/production staffers, etc listed here that are not listed on IMDB. --Alan 20:34, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but in those cases, I'd bet that at least *someone* else out there was able to corroborate or back up those entries with reliable sources. Surely you don't post articles about people just because somone posts on their own website that they were involved with a production? There's got to be *some* kind of verifiability or reliable referencing going on. I don't see that here. FourPike 20:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Keep. Let's not go eradicating pages for people who actually have worked on Star Trek. The interview is valid, IMO. Also, there's a lot of information out there that IMDb has missed... in fact, I just came across a guy who was a production assistant on five or six films (and was credited in those films) but IMDb only has him down for two. --From Andoria with Love 03:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Proof that he has worked on Trek: [3] --From Andoria with Love 03:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I pointed that out Shran, but I believe the cause for concern here is that 1) that his is personal website, and it does not state who the interview is with, and 2) there is some concern that he possibly fabricated some of his contributions to Trek, as there is no other sources (other than his own saying) that he was involved with Trek. Not sure if you are registered on IMDB, but the message boards on Genovese' page has a discussion, so I am told, supporting the theory that he fabricated his "resume." Still, it does come across equally fishy that FourPike's first contribution to MA is this discussion. --Alan 03:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) For the record, the Czech article says that they have learned that Anthony Genovese is working on the new Star Trek movie (they don't seem to be citing IMDb, just linking readers to Genovese's IMDb page). It also says that he's worked on Voyager and Next Generation and something about it being nice that someone adept at creating Trek sets is working on the new film. --From Andoria with Love 03:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Reply to Alan: I am registered on IMDb, but there's no message boards associated with him. I'll check out those Hidden Frontier boards. --From Andoria with Love 03:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
There are 3 posts on IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0312964/board --Alan 03:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Yah, I found 'em. Usually they show up at the bottom of the page. --From Andoria with Love 04:06, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, from what I can tell (I've only read a handful of comments) Anthony Genovese posted comments and then someone yells at him for copying other people's reviews or something -- do we have any proof that he has lied about his work or resume? He seems to offer evidence to the contrary, including pics with Frank Oz and a pic of him on a Voyager set. He even gives specific dates during which he worked on the shows. If no proof that he falsified his resume (found here exists, then I still say keep. (For the record, ForPike is one of the users who have commented to Genovese on IMDb). --From Andoria with Love 04:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
This seems to be a borderline case of both claims being equally "fishy". If this is kept, I suggest to add a {{pna-cite}} to the article for the time being, and to remove it only after we get "good" independent confirmation. -- Cid Highwind 09:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I would agree to that. The thing is, Anthony Genovese himself is a valid source. The problem is that he appears to have a history of lying -- we just don't know if he's lying about his resume. Based on his history, though, a pna-cite seems a good way to go until someone else can verify his claims. --From Andoria with Love 09:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Delete unless some proof can be found, for the following reasons. 1) The burden of proof is on the people who claim he did work on Trek, not the people who claim he didn't. Its impossible to prove a negative. 2) So far the only "factual" evidence I've seen here comes from his own website. If thats a memory alpha allowed source, then let me say that I've been an actor in every Star Trek episode/movie ever produced. Its on my webpage (not really). 3) We see pictures of "someone" on the set of Star Trek... we have no independent confirmation that these pictures are actually Anthony Genovese. Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't have a problem with this, although in an situation where zero independent verification is present, that becomes significant. 4) While the question of his character shouldn't be, in itself, reason for deletion, but it is reason for investigation. If that investigation yields no results other then his personal website, it should be deleted. 5) Who cares whether it was Fprpikes first post, or his millionth post? He's not asking you to take his word for it. He's simply asking that you listen to what he's saying, and judge yourself (its not like he deleted the page, he simply nominated it for deletion). These five facts seem pretty reasonable, especially considering I don't see any real arguments on the other side. Hossrex 09:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
You of course realize that Anthony Genovese has credited acting appearances and that that is what Anthony Genovese looks like... right? ;) Also, regarding this being FourPike's first edit, it just seemed somewhat fishy because he was someone who got had problems with Genovese on IMDb. Suddenly he comes here and asks for his page to be deleted. Just seemed fishy, is all. --From Andoria with Love 10:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I support Cid's idea of adding a pna to the page in question and taking some time to find out one way or the other. As I said earlier, this discussion should have been started on the page in question and not suggested for deletion until the claims in question were deemed to be unfounded.
Hossrex, it should be noted that FourPike did remove everything he could about this person except for the article(which he can't do himself). --31dot 20:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Keep for now. I agree to the comment above. I've sent e-mails out to my sources, perhaps anyone can confirm that he was/ is a part of Star Trek. – Tom 22:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I, too, am investigating the matter, although I don't have quite as many contacts/sources as Tom. :) --From Andoria with Love 03:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Admin resolution

Follow ups

PNA: See above. --From Andoria with Love 03:52, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Just thought I'd throw this into the pile. John Whiting, the man with whom Genovese worked with on Hidden Frontier and the man whom Genovese has been feuding with, admits that Genovese worked on Star Trek sets ([4]). So while some of the credits in the article may be inaccurate, there is justification for his article to remain. --From Andoria with Love 07:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
    • I've been following this guy's posts on IMDb. He strikes me as very deluded, dishonest, duplicitous, and insulting... I'm wondering if maybe we should bring this up for deletion again until we can get official confirmation that he worked on Trek. --From Andoria with Love 23:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
      • This article has serious problems - none of this guy's Trek credits show up on IMDB, nor does half the stuff mentioned in this article. I also followed the links to the IMDB discussions (that link above doesn't work, tho), and based on this guy's posting history, if the only source for this guy's contributions is the guy himself, this thing needs to be wiped. And also, from those same IMDB posts, this John Whiting guy says that Genovese never worked on Hidden Frontier either... something is rotten here. 67.117.42.157 15:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
    • I am inclined to agree. I am really considering bringing this back up for deletion, based on his behavior on IMDb and since we have no other source other than himself. I contacted the company he claims to have worked for during production on 2009's Star Trek; they have refused to reply back. So I'm likely gonna bring this back up for deletion pretty soon. Having an inaccuracy PNA template on the page forever just won't cut it. --From Andoria with Love 02:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, we agreed to give it some time to see if these claims can be corroborated. Looks like nothing has come up in that time. I support bringing this up for deletion. If some independent confirmation is ever found, we can always go through the undeletion process.--31dot 23:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
There is some sad revenge history on listing this creative ST professional here with this matter. Your over reliance on the very biased comments from his unbalanced nine year Internet stalker, J. Whiting and his many anti-Genovese six allies who post on the IMDB forums under many alaises is a unfortunate mistake that will damage removing the truthful facts already here. IMDB listing of true career jobs is not complete many times as the final decision maker. Real actors know this and can be checked easily. Well known stars career jobs are not always completely included in IMDB. That doesn't mean those jobs didn't exhist, just not yet included at IMDB. That is due to lack of knowledgable IMDB credit listing personel, lack of submissions or job corrections by working actors and finally a concerted effort by Whiting and the HF klan to censor Genovese IMDB credit listings by filing endless malicious listing corrections and many libelous emails sent to the IMDB staff. He defends himself against these jealouse detractors, who are annoyed that he has been a whistle-blower against HF's long time use of copyright pirated digital materials from the beginning with many studio contacts he has from his studio career. Genovese knows what he worked on. He has supplied photo proof on some of his Internet sites and other evidence has been published on 3rd party Internet sites dealing with related film and TV projects. In lew of getting an impartial 3rd party confirmation of his career jobs, this material is innocent until proven guilty and slanderous inuendo from his Internet anonymous Wikipedia enemies should have no weight in this decision. In fact, any comments attacking this helpful listing should be extensively examined for that person's true credibilty or having a grudge agenda. Genovese has a klan of IMDB forum trolls who search/google and attack any site that list his career work for their own sick malicious reasons. That is very unfair and a malicious agenda driven attack designed to hurt this artist from ever having his rightful resume on the Internet. This listing should be included. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.130.134.70 (talk).

Memory Alpha:Pages for deletion/Anthony Genovese (part 2)

Deletion rationale

As discussed on the talk page, no further evidence can be found to substantiate this man's claims that he worked on Star Trek. As it stands now it can't be proved that he did what he claims, and until it can be, this article should go. That's what we have an undeletion process for.--31dot 22:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Delete until or unless his connection with Trek is confirmed.--Tim Thomason 22:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete, and here's why: Mr. Genovese will probably think we're giving into the trolls... the problem is, I was looking at his own comments on IMDb (which have since been deleted) as well as the comments made by his "trolls" and, well... things just look fishy on both ends. Neither Mr. Genovese or his "trolls" inspired much trust from their arguments at IMDb. Regardless of whether or not anybody is lying or trolling, the fact of the matter is that the people I have talked to regarding Mr. Genovese's involvement in Trek have either never heard of Mr. Genovese, are unsure or don't remember, or refuse to comment. If I could get ahold of Herman Zimmerman or Downey Studios and they can confirm his involvement in Trek, that would be great. Right now, though, I have no way of contacting Mr. Zimmerman and Downey Studios has refused to reply to my e-mails. Since Memory Alpha requires confirmation for these things beyond the subject of the article, I am afraid I must agree this should be deleted. If concrete evidence of his involvement is brought up – confirmation from a co-worker, a production crew list, anything – then his page can be restored, and I will personally be happy to do so. --From Andoria with Love 00:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment: I am currently checking with one more source. I will let you all know what comes up. --From Andoria with Love 16:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment 2: Mr. Genovese is not listed in the final crew list for Star Trek 2009. However, that does not necessarily mean he did not work on the movie, nor does it prove he did not work on past Star Trek shows. I have contacted Downey Studios once again to see if they will answer now, though I doubt it. I am also awaiting a response from another contact, and I think another archivist is contacting someone, as well (don't wanna name names right now). Hopefully we'll be able to get to the bottom of this before the article is deleted. --From Andoria with Love 06:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Admin resolution

Deleted temporarily until further proof of Mr. Genovese's involvement with Trek can be found. Article can be restored if proof is found. --From Andoria with Love 08:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Reopening discussion

It's been over a year and this page was brought to our attention once again by an anonymous user, so I decided to Google Mr. Genovese once again... and I found this. It is a site describing events at this year's MikomiCon at CSU Northridge. It states that Anthony Genovese was a guest there, and that he worked on Star Trek. To quote the article:

Tony has also worked on Star Trek set construction at Paramount Studios. Tony had five years at Paramount where he often crewed with Thomas Arp and Star Trek set designer, Herman Zimmerman on numerous seasons of ‘Star Trek: The Next Generation’ & early ‘Voyager’ seasons. Tony specifically constructed for the TNG series; the engineering dept. sets, Dr. N. Soong’s lab, "The EGG" probe, various holodeck scenes, Iconia sets, various alien ship and shuttlecraft sets. Also Tony constructed on the Voyager series, the holodeck French pub "Sandrines", many Borg cube interiors and many alien spacecraft interiors.

The problem with this is that it seems to be derived from information on Mr. Genovese's site, thus it also relies on his own claims. However, I doubt they would invite the man to a convention if he didn't have the proper credentials. Anyway, I wanted to bring it up here to see if anyone agreed that this would be enough proof to restore the article. I will continue looking for additional evidence that may have popped up in the last several months since I last looked. --From Andoria with Love 16:12, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment 2: Doing a Google search for "Anthony Genovese" and "Star Trek" only brings up about 100 hits; the MikomiCon link above is the only one that seems close to being valid. Everything is either IMDb-type sites which users can edit, biography pages anyone could have written, interviews and claims from Mr. Genovese himself, and comments from people in regards to Mr. Genovese. None of these are valid sources, so we're left with just the MikomiCon link above. In the meantime, I have acquired contact info for a few more production staff members since the last time I looked into this, so I'll do some more checking around with them and see if they remember him. --From Andoria with Love 16:28, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
Maybe he's just one hell of a scammer. Regardless, why are we locking a page and declaring it closed when the last "official" word was that is a potential temporary delete and that the discussion would be ongoing? Perhaps it would be better to move this to Ten Forward (next to the Bea Arthur thread)...rather than the bowels of Pfd. --Alan 16:37, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
I protected the page because an anonymous user edited it, an archived page, for their own purposes (to basically say we caved to trolls instead of listening to them) instead of simply starting a Forum(as you did) or even stating that they wished to present evidence(in which case I would not have protected the page and simply transferred it to a Forum). If that was wrong, I apologize, but it was my understanding archived meant it shouldn't be edited.
If there is new information, I am more than willing to see it, but as Alan said maybe this man is just a hell of a scammer and they bought it. Maybe I don't know much about the entertainment business, but I would think that this man could produce someone to say he did what he did or physical evidence of it. Maybe Shran will be able to find something out.--31dot 03:31, November 11, 2009 (UTC)
  • 31dot, please read my statement at the beginning of this section ("Reopening discussion"). I have presented new evidence supporting Genovese's claims there, I just don't know if it's strong enough (Alan doesn't think so). The reason I re-opened this discussion was to see if people felt this new evidence was strong enough to restore Genovese's article. --From Andoria with Love 03:36, November 11, 2009 (UTC)
"Join Anthony Genovese, producer of a cable TV show called Kalifornia Kaleidoscope that screens in 835,000 cable subscriber family homes in So California's counties as he advises how to produce your own cable access show or web series."
That is probably why they invited him. However all that's needed now would be for someone to contact Zimmerman and say "hey, did you happen to work with <insert name here>? If so, what did you collaborate on?" The rest of the information stated on that site seems to come from Anthony's own site - which as far as we've established isn't credible. — Morder (talk) 03:43, November 11, 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I hadn't read it, which I can understand how you would think that. It is of course totally valid of you to bring this (or anything similar) up at any time, I merely explained why I protected the archive.
I personally don't think that is strong enough evidence, either, unless we have access to someone who could explain the rationale for inviting Mr. Genovese beyond "he worked on Star Trek", perhaps like Morder suggested should happen.--31dot 11:11, November 11, 2009 (UTC)
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