Memory Alpha talk:Canon policy

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Contents 1 Star Trek XI and canon...we need to get ahead of the curve 1.1 Which becomes canon? 2 Pathways and Mosaic Novels Should Be Canon 3 Is the film canon — now? 4 "Countdown" exception 5 Confusion! 6 ??? 7 Background Policy Question 8 Geographic minutiae 9 Real World Canon Policy 10 Authorized Fiction by Production Staff 11 Suggest title change - "Resource policy"

[edit] Star Trek XI and canon...we need to get ahead of the curve

Moved from Memory Alpha talk:Policies and guidelines

The new film is going to open up a whole brand new can of storming controversy, I fear. Despite constant statements of "we're following what was laid down" and "respect for what's been done before", if you read the interviews and press materials closely enough, then you'd see that at MOST they are talking about TOS (and MAYBE TAS) when they refer to the canon they respect. The mood at CBS/Para is "back to basics", and that will have PROFOUND implications for MA.

Will we have to disregard TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT and remove them from our articles? Or will we start a whole new set of "Second Universe" articles to cover the JJAdams and after canon?

Decisions need to be made NOW so that we can be ready when the movie hits.Capt Christopher Donovan 04:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think we already made that decision, years ago. When two facts are contradictory, we're using both equally, and eventually make note of the contradiction in a background section. We're doing that even now, and I don't see the need to get nervous now about something that might not even be that big of a contradiction in December 2008... -- Cid Highwind 11:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

In addition, remember that one of the writers is a die-hard fan of TNG (the other prefers TOS), while Abrams is a huge fan of both TOS and TNG and has stated that he owns the DVDs to all the series (including DS9, VOY, and ENT). Plus, the writers themselves may have been doing their own research into canon, utilizing Memory Alpha itself (see Talk:Star Trek (film)). And, although you may interpret that they are only speaking about TOS canon, I think they're intelligent enough to know that, when the say canon, they mean the whole kit-and-kaboodle. I also think they're smart enough not to do anything that would turn countless Trek fans against them. So, yeah, like Cid said, no need to get all jittery about it. Stand down from red alert, Captain. ;)

Also, this may have been better placed at Memory Alpha talk:Canon policy. Eh... oh, well. :P --From Andoria with Love 12:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Besides, they have claimed they use MA for researching the movie, which means they will actually read this, gasp! ;-) --Jörg 12:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Kinda dangerous to get ahead of a curve whose shape you can't even see yet. I can't imagine that a single movie, reportedly designed to fill in a very specific gap in the timeline, will be able to definitively erase the post-TOS Trek universe. There's just not enough time in an hour and a half to do that. (Well, not if the primary intent of the film is to tell a good story that will bring first-time viewers into the cinemas). So I really wouldn't worry just yet. CzechOut ☎ | ✍ 15:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Which becomes canon?

Hypothetical query - if something in the 2009 movie very obviously contradicts what we saw in TOS (say, oh...the look of the NCC-1701, which at least in the teaser appears different), which would Memory Alpha consider canon? Which becomes in-universe 'fact', as it were, according to this site? --Mada101 00:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Same as we treat current contradictions. Note both and leave it at that. We'll deal with that when it arises (since the trailers and teasers are not canon :) ) -- Sulfur 00:44, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The reason that the Enterprise looks different is something to do with Nero creating an alternate timeine. So the new look of the Enterprise should be mentioned like with other alternate timelines.– The preceding unsigned comment was added by Icecreamdif (talk • contribs) .

Please see the discussion about this subject here.--31dot 23:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Pathways and Mosaic Novels Should Be Canon

I understand all novels are considered non-canon on MA, but I think this is a mistake with regards to Pathways and Mosaic by Jeri Taylor.

Consider this. She co-created Voyager and its characters. Therefore these are her characters. Therefore is she or another co-creator not the best person to write about them and their early histories before joining the ship's crew? Since they are hers, what she says about their early histories should be considered canon, don't you think? This isn't some writer who decided to write a Voyager novel about the characters; this is one of the creators of the characters themselves. If Gene Roddenberry had penned such a novel about the TOS characters, I certainly do not think that would have been considered non-canon.

I further quote from MA's Background Information section of the MA article on these books:

Pathways was considered canon by the writers and producers of Star Trek: Voyager following its publication. Many of its plot details made their way into episodes. However, like "Mosaic", it has been superseded in some cases by events in later seasons.

Mosaic was considered canon by the writers and producers of Star Trek: Voyager following its publication. Many of its plot details made their way into episodes. However, like "Pathways", it has been superseded in some cases by events in later seasons

Of course, what is seen onscreen is to be considered canon above all else, but for events in the characters' early histories that the show says nothing about, I think (as MA's articles clearly support) that these books a should be considered a canon resource–the only, and I stress that word–ONLY such books.

Just something to think about.

– Watching... ^listening... 20:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

No detailed response at this time... other than to note that Roddenberry penned the novel for the Motion Picture. And he never stated that he considered it canon. He always stated "only what's on screen... other than the Animated Series" :) -- Sulfur 21:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Star Trek is not about what is in books, it is about what is on the screen. There are many books written by production staff and actors which are not considered canon.(Roddenberry, Shimerman, and Andrew Robinson). There are even books which were considered canon at one time but are no longer. Star Fleet Technical Manual) The same could happen in the future with Okuda's reference books, despite them being used by the writers of TNG-on. I would oppose letting these books be considered canon. If someone really wanted to, MA already has Background sections where information from these books could be added.--31dot 21:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is the film canon — now?

I started a discussion at Memory Alpha talk:Spoiler policy#Dealing with film spoilers about dealing with spoilers from film pre-publicity (the trailer, interviews with film personnel, spoiler reports and so on). In that discussion, it was suggested that the film is not canon until its release. I can see that argument, but there's nothing in the canon policy that states this explicitly. (I proposed a counter-argument that the film is canon before its release, but as its contents are not yet known for certain it exists in a state of quantum flux... well, it made sense at the time.)

I guess I'm doing three things here. One is pointing readers of this page towards the discussion on the spoiler policy talk page. The second is asking whether people agree that the film is not canon until it is released, or whether it can be considered "canon but not known". The third, which is dependent on the answer given to the second, is asking whether something should be added to the canon policy, clarifying the status of material not yet released. —Josiah Rowe 06:37, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what part of...

Valid resources

The following are valid resources from the episodes and movies and may be referenced in Trek universe articles as citations, in descending order of precedence:

1. Spoken dialogue (what is said)
2. Visual material (what is seen)
3. Aural material (what is heard that is not dialogue)

Visual material can be supplemented by clearer visual images of the identical material seen (for example, production art identifiable as being the same as shown on screen in an episode but more legible than what is shown on screen) if the clearer image is a freeze frame from the episode, contained in an authorized publication, or otherwise generally and publicly available from a verifiable production source.

...this is unclear - since the movie hasn't aired none of that information could be see/heard. Since the Trailer isn't the movie it doesn't count...let's also keep the discussion where you started it - or where it belongs - let's not move it around. — Morder 06:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) This seems to basically be the same conversation in the page you linked. At least, it certainly seems like you're looking for the same answers. Please keep discussions on one page; it makes things much more easier. Having said that, no, a movie is not canon until its released, because no canon has actually been released. As stated in our spoiler policy, we contain spoilers on in-universe articles from released material only. If it's not released, then there's no in-universe information to add. Anyway, since I can tell already that this discussion is going to go the same route as the one you linked, I would advise just keeping the discussion there. :/ --From Andoria with Love 06:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I only came here because TribbleFurSuit suggested that it might be a more appropriate venue. And for what it's worth, I don't see anything in the policy as it stands now that explicitly says "released material only" — there's a bit about "material intentionally not in episodes", but that's not quite the same thing as a film that's completed but not yet released. I don't mean to push the point, though. —Josiah Rowe 07:14, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I think this point is moot, anyway... Our "Canon policy" is just one of several policies that govern what material we accept, and what we don't. Even if we considered the content of an unknown film "canon" (whatever that would mean, really) - we still shouldn't add that "canon" material to an article if another policy has a problem with that. :) -- Cid Highwind 10:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Countdown" exception

Should "Countdown" be included in the "canon resource" section despite it's not being a filmed depiction? The associated materials with the comic declare it the "Official Movie Prequel". The story comes from the screenwriters. Also, it is listed on the backblurb "JJ Abrams, Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman (and the 'scriptwriters for the comic} present the origin of Nero..."

I've listed this as a question on the "Ask JJ" section which would give us a definitive answer, but all available evidence says "Countdown", unlike other comics, IS canon.Capt Christopher Donovan 13:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I present, as evidence Pathways and Mosaic. I'd say... no. -- sulfur 13:41, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd also ask how many novels are written by writers of episodes? I'd have to say 'no' as well. — Morder 16:14, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I would also say no. I think that Abrams has said that it is not neccesary to read the comic in order to understand the movie, which would suggest that he doesn't think its canon.--31dot 17:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the above, and would like to add the following for consideration: If we allow each new producer to define what we will need to consider "canon" or "non-canon", we potentially have much rewriting to do each time a new producer comes aboard. In fact, it seems as if Abrams view of the Trek universe doesn't contain everything that is considered canon right now. In this regard, it might be a good thing that we already have a policy for "valid resources" instead of "canon vs. non-canon". I'd say, let MB handle that comic, while we handle the film. -- Cid Highwind 20:21, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

"Isn't necessary to read" does not = "isn't canon", IMO. He's just saying that you don't HAVE to read it, not that he does or doesn't consider it "what really happened" prior to the film.

If Abrams is the new "creative force" behind Trek, as is the case here, then hasn't he become the new "keeper of the canon" as primary creator? Paramount, by signing off on it (by producing it) would be considered to have given it's tacit approval to his decisions in the matter.Capt Christopher Donovan 21:37, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Paramount is the only decider of canon. (especially with the recent addition of TAS to it - thought we had an exception because of our what was seen on screen is canon) Adding an exception to one print comic is a slippery slope with regards to people asking "why not this one" or "why is this novelization not canon". We have novelizations of films that aren't canon that contain a lot of information not seen on screen. They're official novelizations. Even if J.J. does say "it's canon" - he's not paramount and only to him is it canon. There might be a new director for the next movie there could be a change in writers, lots of stuff can change...so I still have to say 'no'. We have an Apocrypha section for stuff that is deemed important (though i think we should remove it - who gets to decide what's important enough to list here - and have links to MB as we do everywhere). Anyway - this is what MB is for. — Morder 21:55, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion!

Abrams has stated that Star Trek happens right before the five year mission. So the ship design goes against canon! What will happen to all the new non-canon facts on MA? The facts are in a different universe now. Just like the non-canon Mirror Universe. --24.15.28.179 16:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

See here: Forum:Has there been a decision on how to handle JJ Adams' Trek vis a vis articles? (slight spoiler inside) -- sulfur 16:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, the Mirror Universe is not non-canon. -OuroborosCobra ^talk 00:16, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit]  ???

You considere canon his first name but you don't "canonise" the jonathan Archer's death date !!! Sometime your policy is hard to understand !! can you explain me C-IMZADI-4 21:24, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

You should ask this on the canon policy talk page as it pertains to that and not this article. — Morder 21:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh...and read this...

• Richard Robau was portrayed by Faran Tahir. His first name comes from official production material, including his dossier profile on the official movie site. According to his profile on Intel's Starfleet Shipyard site, Robau was born in Sagua La Grande, Cuba, and his Starfleet Service Number is SA-476-2549-CM. Ambassador Spock's commentary about George Kirk's survival of serving on the Kelvin in the unchanged timeline indicates that Robau probably had a longer life in the unaltered chain of events as well.

— Morder 21:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, I already read this, because I've just made french version ! but first name come from material production, and for jonathan it was in scenes cut, if my Memento is good ??? I'm french and "medium in english language and my policy page is not complete, can you be clear (in 2 words) ? why Richard and not jonathan death date , C-IMZADI-4 21:54, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

The relevant section is:

"The only exception to the exclusion of production or reference material not seen on-screen from the main body of an article is for naming items or people that were seen on-screen but not referred to by name. For example, names such as Livingston and Neural were not mentioned on-screen, but are derived from production sources. The primary reason for this is to avoid creating a large number of "unnamed" subject pages when an official name already exists."

In other words, names of articles can come from production sources; any other data cannot be included in-universe. -- Michael Warren | Talk 04:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Background Policy Question

If a Star Trek producer or writer (or some other production personnel) is ask to speculate about something in the Star Trek universe, is that speculation automatically considered background information? The reason I ask this is because I've seen a lot references lately pointing to interviews with people involved with the making of Star Trek. However, in these interviews they are often developing answers to questions that they had never considered when they were making the movie. In other words they are speculating after the fact. Is this acceptable? This isn't unique to Star Trek either.--Hribar 03:31, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd call it background, as we've done with the Ronald Moore interviews. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 04:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Geographic minutiae

I think with the recent series of geographic articles about places which were not clearly seen and/or not seen for more than a fraction of a second, we may need to create some sort of policy about this issue. I'm not sure how it should be worded or anything, but I think we need to mention it.

In the case of some of the pages I've suggested for deletion, a map from "The Cage" is offered as evidence that it existed. If you ignore the fact that it was on screen for a miniscule period of time, most of the places like Ottawa cannot be seen on the map. Taken to the extreme, since the entire Earth has been seen in canon, every geographic feature on Earth could have an article. I don't think that's what we want.--31dot 12:32, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Real World Canon Policy

What is the MA policy concerning events, persons, places and things that exist in the real world but are referenced in Star Trek? Is the knowledge base of these subjects strictly limited to what is derived from canon resources? Same thing with background information.--Hribar 17:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

In short, yes. It is best to limit the content to the reference. Establishing context is ok, if necessary to establish context and motive, but it shouldnt go much beyond what was flat-out stated or implied. Ronald Reagan is a fair example of addressing this (although I am not sure about the necessity of the actual years he was president) as well as what makes relevant background information. --Alan 17:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Authorized Fiction by Production Staff

There currently is some confusion if Star Trek: Countdown can be used for articles or not, for example Hobus or Teral'n. In the case of Teral'n deletion was already rejected on that basis. But per our current policy, this comic is NOT different from any other even if AK+BO contributed to it. We need to be consistent with this! So, maybe this event is the point to reopen the debate whether authorized fiction written by production staff should be elevated to the same level as other production materials- no new articles but naming on-screen "things"-we could get Lori Ciana for example. Kennelly 17:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

There's no confusion. It's not canon unless Paramount says so. Simple as that. In the case of the Teral'n, there is a source for that name besides the comic(the script). You are correct though that if it was the only source for the name of an object, it might be permissible to use it for that particular instance. I don't know of a situation like that, though.--31dot 22:41, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, according to Paramount TAS canon status is ambiguous (or was for a long time), so I'd really reject simple statements like "Paramount says what is canon"!And according to Teral'n talkpage, the sources for naming are the comic, the novelization and the toybox (!) produced by people allegedly having access to the script, but certainly so did Gene Roddenberry when he did TMP's novelization? Kennelly 16:30, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

To follow on Kennelly's comment, I bring up (as usual), the novels Pathways and Mosaic. -- sulfur 00:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Suggest title change - "Resource policy"

Since it's always coming up whether "x is canon, y is non-canon" in terms of using it as a reference here, might I suggest that this be renamed as Resource policy, and we try and refer to things as valid and invalid resources, to avoid confusion with the true usage of canon (since things that are non-canon can be valid resources (for background information, etc)). This is not our policy on what is canon - we don't get to define that. Instead, it is a policy on what resources can be used in our articles, and should reflect that. -- Michael Warren | Talk 10:34, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Full agreement and support. This policy already does not really talk about what is canon and what not, but about "validity". The title should reflect that. -- Cid Highwind 12:01, 28 June 2009 (UTC)