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Talk:Battle of Wolf 359

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[edit] Nomination for featured article

Together with the list of ships at Wolf 359, this article gives all canon-info along with good illustrations. The article was created with the help of various people. --BlueMars 18:53, Jun 26, 2004 (CEST)

  • Seconded. -- Redge 19:33, 26 Jun 2004 (CEST)
  • Approve. (I did some major rewriting on this article a while back.) -- Dan Carlson 20:27, 26 Jun 2004 (CEST)
  • Seconded. It's pretty good. Ottens 21:54, 27 Jun 2004 (CEST)
  • Seconded. --BlueMars 00:33, Jun 28, 2004 (CEST)
  • Definitely support -- Michael Warren

[edit] Klingons at Wolf 359?

Have the Klingons really been proven to have been at Wolf 359 for the battle? All of the dialogue seems to indicate that it was a Starfleet-only engagement. Furthermore, the single effects shot of Klingon ships seen in relation to the Borg was from "Unity," but there were a large number of Klingon ships seen in that shot (reused from DS9's "The Way of the Warrior"). I seriously doubt that the Klingons would have sent that many ships so quickly, considering that they were unlikely to have any of their warships stationed inside Federation territory. -- MinutiaeMan 19:04, 13 Jan 2004 (PST)

Perhaps the Klingons did send ships, but they didn't arrive in time for Wolf359. Could we get some references in this article? I thought it was just the two TNG episodes, but in one of the screenshots I read it was taken from "Emissary". Could someone clarify please? -- Redge 18:23, 26 Jun 2004 (CEST)

[edit] Forum:Klingon ships at battle of wolf 359

Is there any evidence that the klingons fought in the battle of wolf 359. I know Adml Hansen told Picard in BoBW Pt. 1 that they asked for assistance, but do we know if any actually took part in the battle? Jaz 04:11, 24 Oct 2005 (UTC) Anyone?

I brought this issue up awhile ago, and it's a difficult one, mainly due to a reference in Star Trek: Voyager (Or rather a comment by a battle 'survivor') that Klingons were in the battle. However, despite this comment, I personally don't think Klingons were actually in the Battle of Wolf 359 itself, but maybe tried to stop the Borg cube on it's journey to Earth. Again, as I said, a difficult issue. - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 02:15, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)
Except, didn't season 2 of TNG establish that the Borg were trying to probe through Romulan space, to find out about the Alpha Quadrant? and that they also took the same path during their invasion? meaning they would have passed through Romulan space, making it kind of hard for the Klingons to have intercepted them.
Of course if you take Voyager into account, then it almost doesn't make sense that the Borg would bother flying through the Alpha Quadrant at all when they apparently have a transwarp conduit that goes directly into Earth orbit.. come to think of it, when you consider that it seems rather odd that they didn't keep dumping cubes out of that one conduit every other day until they had control of Earth. Or for that matter, since other episodes of Voyager established that the transwarp conduits were thousands of years old, why didn't the Borg Sphere in First Contact try and use one to contact the 21st century Borg? Or for that matter, why didn't the Borg from Regeneration do the same thing?
I'll tell you why... because--205.188.116.9 16:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Because it's possible the Borg Collective built that conduit after Wolf 359. After all this battle took place in 2367 while the final episode of Voyager took place in 2378, twelve years later. The same goes for the Battle of Sector 001 in First Contact (which took place in 2373, five years earlier). And I think it's safe to set our egos aside and postulate that it is possible that humanity is not the Borg Collective's first target for assimilation in the galaxy. Also that "thousands of years old" part is just plain wrong; since that scale of years has never been mentioned in canon and that the Borg encountered Species 262 in the 22nd century (assuming that the Borg designations are chronological, which is fairly backed up in canon; aside from the Ferengi). -Lord Hyren 02:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Didn't "The Drumhead" say the Klingons were there? --74.61.228.199 08:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay. here is how it is, less than a day from the battle, approx. 0.9 stardates to be exact(ish), Hansen said: "Klingons are sending warships" clearly expecting they would make it in time. That's all we have in canon. 40 Starfleet ships were in the fleet at that time allready. "The Drumhead" states only that 39 "of our" (= Starfleet) ships were destroyed. In apocrypha we have the depiction of the Klingon reinforcements: at least one Klingon Bird-of-Prey, at least three K't'inga-class and one Vor'cha-class starships in the 1997 Marvel Comics Star Trek: Voyager issue #10. Until we have canon confirmation however, this information must remain in the apocrypha section. --Pseudohuman 17:33, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
There is also the matter of Klingon ships seen in the Borg memory sequence of "Unity" as food for thought (and obviously fuel for speculation), but some sort of fact, nonetheless. --Alan 20:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The Ship That Got Away

An another note: Star Trek.com lists the USS Saratoga as being the one ship to escape intact. -- Redge 19:06, 26 Jun 2004 (CEST)

I was under the impression that the Enterprise was the fortieth ship in the fleet and that it was the only survivor. --Andrew 12-21-04 18:16 PST
If we often accept other conclusions from the Star Trek Encyclopedia, why are so many against having the USS Endeavour as the sole survivor? --Wangry 8-16-05

[edit] Forum:Ships lost at wolf 359

How many ships were lost at the battle of wolf 359--IP User:24.208.221.223 01:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

39, as listed on the article. Although I believe they said "forty" a couple times, but that's just an average. - AJ Halliwell 01:27, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
What I have usually heard and read is that 40 ships were present, 39 destroyed, implying that one survived/got away/retreated. --OuroborosCobra talk 01:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hansen's ship?

I was under the impression that Admiral Hanson's ship was the Melbourne. How then could Adm. Hanson make a last ditch effort at the end of the battle if his ship was the first to be destroyed? -- <unsigned>

There are known to be two Melbournes at Wolf 359. The Nebula class ship is seen both in TNG: "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" and DS9: "Emissary" and the Excelsior model only seen in Emissary. It is possible that the Melbourne which Hanson is on was the Nebula class which is known to have survived longer into the battle then its Excelsior class namesake --Mattyp48 17:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
According to the script of the episode, Hansen's ship was a Galaxy-class ship, his message was sent from a Galaxy-class battle bridge. The association with Hansen and the Melbourne comes from apocrypha: the 1997 Marvel Comics Star Trek: Voyager issue #10. Other than that there is no indication it was the Melbourne. --Pseudohuman 17:48, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
ah my mistake, however that said a Proto Nebula hull can clearly be seen in both the above named episodes, as a result should it not be added to the list of ships at Wolf 359 but be given an unknown name and an unknown registry?
It was, and no. The majority of MA users feel that the Excelsior-Melbourne was used to retcon the proto-Nebula entirely "out of canon". Similarly as the remastered-TOS ships retcon the original ships. There was a discussion about this that lasted for years in Talk:USS Melbourne and a long discussion about how MA deals with retcons too in Forum:Retcons. --Pseudohuman 14:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
The thing can be seen floating upside down past Siskos shuttlepod. The name might have been changed, but a proto-nebula was at the battle, that ship might not have been the melbourne, but it clearly fought along side it. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mattyp48 (talk • contribs) .
That would be the image on the bottom of the USS Melbourne page, essentially. --Alan 21:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Also, please Mattyp48, read all the previous discussions on this subject first and feel free to open them up again at their own talk pages (not here) if you feel you have something new to add. --Pseudohuman 11:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The Borg Drones That Got Away

The Wolf 359 cube initiated self destruct in orbit of Earth (despite the fact the drones where meant to be 'asleep'). Yet, there are several canon references that say some drones on the Wolf 359 cube survived, perhaps going straight back to the Delta Quadrant. Not least, the Queen herself. In First Contact the Queen and Picard's interaction allude to the fact that she was the same Queen as in that cube. Many Voyager episodes also show people/drones that were supposedly assimilated in Wolf 359 and survived, as mentioned in the main article, eg. Laura. Indeed, when Picard asks the Queen how she got away she says that "You think in such three-dimensional terms". So, when the Borg initiated self-destruct in that cube did it hide the fact that some drones were transwarp-ing out of there or using extra-dimensional escape routes? -- <unsigned>

That message was probably made years ago, but anywho... Some Borg might've beamed to a disabled Starfleet ship in order to assimilate it, and then warped off to the Delta Quadrant after the Cube had carried on heading for Earth. The Queen's resurrection could be anything from telepathy to some sort of dimensional fiddling(that's a highly technical term you may not be familiar with). --Pearse 22:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Another possible explanation - Star Trek: First Contact clearly illustrates that Borg cubes (at least some of them) are equipped with smaller vessels (the Borg Sphere). Since there is no canon evidence to contradict it, it appears reasonable that the Cube at Wolf 359 would also have a Sphere onboard. If that is the case, the Battle could have taken place, then the Sphere could have seperated from the Cube. At that point, the Cube continued onto Earth and the Sphere returned to the Delta Quadrant. Starfleet personnel could have been assimilated at the Battle and taken to the Delta Quadrant by the Sphere. In addition, this would mean that both the Borg Queen and Seven of Nine could have been present at the Battle and survived by returning to the Delta Quadrant before the Cube was destroyed. Also, since there are large periods of time during "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" (both before and after the Battle) where the action focuses on the Enterprise, not the Cube, we can't be certain what the Borg are doing exactly. These events could have simply taken place offscreen. 65.185.148.131 11:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Transwarp

It wouldn't be a good script if the Borg managed to transwarp directly to Earth's atmosphere so I understand why the cube was traveling towards the Sol sector at warp giving the writers time for an interesting story. But I still haven't seen an explanation in any of the shows of why the Borg didn't just arrive directly at Earth like that. Could there ever be a plausible explanation? because I'm sure it would make a good story. -- <unsigned>

Simple, the Borg didn't start utilizing transwarp until around the time of "Descent" (when it was frist mentioned). Or that the Borg had not yet begun building transwarp conduits inside the Alpha Quadrant or Beta Quadrant just yet. After all, the collective missed assimilating a lot of species in their own quadrant. -Lord Hyren 02:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

It's also possible that the transwarp conduits are natural, stable phenomena that the Borg have simply learned to access and use. Maybe the closest exit is light-years away from Sector 001

I don't think so. The transwarp conduit used in VOY: "Endgame" was very close to Earth. --OuroborosCobra talk 06:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
As demonstrated in VOY, Borg Cubes generate transwarp conduits artificially. Also Borg Cubes used transwarp at least as early as the 2350s according to Dark Frontier. So it remains a mystery from the in-universe perspective. =) --Pseudohuman 00:12, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] removed section

As a featured article with some incites, I removed the following:

Although most of the major battles of the Dominion War seven years later were fought on a much greater scale, Wolf 359 itself will be remembered as the incident that broke centuries of near-total peace for the Federation and heralded a tumultuous decade of conflict to come.

as uncited. It'd be nice to see some sort of statement supporting this, since the article is a FA. "Centuries of near-total peace" also seems a little exaggerated, given the Cardassian wars, the Tzenkethi war, and the Talarian conflict.--31dot 13:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

After reading the section "Aftermath" I came across the incorrect citation DS9: "The Search" following the paragraph about Commander Shelby. I edited it accordingly to DS9: "The Search, Part I". Wasn't sure if the citation was incomplete intentionally due to a debate or not, but Part I would be correct and I haven't seen any talk about it being otherwise. Also, with there being two entirely separate facts mentioned in the same paragraph I gave the later fact pertaining to Starfleet's new defensive posture in ship construction its own citation as well. Additionally, I edited Commander Shelby's name to link to her article, which was previously not there. --BloodMalice 07:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ships at Wolf 359

I think that it is entirely possible that the Klingons could have had a least a couple of ships in the vicinity and I denounce the idea of the USS Endeavor being the starship that survived. After seeing the wreckage of the battle it is highly improbable that the Borg cube would have let anyone survive or even escape. - Thetrekker

On what do you base your assertion that the Endeavour was not the surviving ship? Janeway read from log entry of an Endeavour that participated in a battle against the Borg. Since they were already in the DQ when Star Trek: First Contact occurred, it could not have been that battle it survived. Now, it is certainly not definitive that the battle it survived was Wolf 359, but there is at least evidence to support that.--31dot 20:56, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

possible isn't enough. It needs to be the definite truth. Sometimes I find it sad or annoying, but Memory Alpha would rather have holes or blank spots than make something up to fill that hole. Then again you see some things people add now and again that makes you cherish that rule. – Saphsaph 06:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] USS Ahwahnee

According to the article on the USS Ahwahnee the ship is active and as such was not destroyed at Wolf 359.

If this is the case and only one ship out of the 40 survived the battle and as of yet there is no other proof of another ship that got away would that not suggest that the ship out of the 40 that was not destroyed was the Ahwahnee --Mattyp48 17:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Ahwahnee did not "get away", because it was seen on screen in the debris field as an abandoned derelict. It was how ever somewhat intact and presumably repaired in time for "Redemption II". But I agree, it wasn't completely lost as such. But I think Satie counted it in with the 39 in "The Drumhead", but who knows.--Pseudohuman 17:41, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

My mistake in using the term "got away", probably not the best term to use. However if we accept that there were 40 ships at Wolf 359 and 39 were destroyed then the Ahwahnee most be the only surviving ship, as it didnt get away in the sense of it fleeing the battle however it is 'adrift but salvageable' much like the Defiant during the Battle of Sector 001, and no one would consider that to have been lost during that battle --Mattyp48 22:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. However "adrift but salvageable" was not the term used in BoBW2 instead they looked with horror at the devastation, "No active subspace fields, negligible power readings, no lifesigns". And there were several ships in the same derelict condition, that were still mostly intact hulls. And the 39 statement must also be taken in-context. Satie was passionately accusing Picard of mass murder trying to make the destruction and death toll seem as big as possible. The "adrift but salvageable" was said when Picard was trying to comfort Worf. Perhaps all of the wrecks at Wolf 359 were adrift and salvageable too. We may never know. Other than that, I agree with you, you may be absolutely right. It's still too vague to be definitive proof, me thinks. --Pseudohuman 00:27, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
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