Talk:Earth-Romulan War

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For archived discussions, see Talk:Earth-Romulan War/archive.

Contents 1 22nd Century BoP 2 Literality in date estimates 3 New Romulan Symbol? 4 Actual dialogue 5 removed defunct link 6 Alliance involvement 7 We're contradicting ourselves... 8 Giant logos 9 Spaceflight Chronology 10 Spocks description of early earth ships in 'Balance of Terror'

[edit] 22nd Century BoP

Sorry, but I have to ask this. What is the justification for having the Romulan Bird-of-Prey (22nd century) pictured in this article? Doing that implies that they were used in the war. We have no evidence of that, and in fact we have evidence to the contrary:

• Stiles: "They're painted like a giant bird of prey."

Stiles was describing the ships seen in this war. Well, these aren't painted that way. Now, am I saying it is impossible that they were used? No. I am saying that there is no evidence they were used. The only time we even see them is in 2152, possibly as much as 8 years before the war. For all we know, they were a design that was for some reason or other retired before the war began. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 11:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a "contemporary" Romulan ship of the period, just like the NX class is a contemporary Earth Starfleet ship of the period. We know the NX class is in service AT LEAST until 2161 (when Enteprise is retired). There's nothing to suggest that EITHER side built entirely new fleets just to fight the war, so they must have used what they had. Simple logic.Capt Christopher Donovan 12:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The logic isn't that simple, I'm afraid. While there's nothing to suggest that this type of ship wasn't used in the war, there's nothing to suggest the opposite, either, so the article shouldn't pretend that this was the case. That said, I'm not sure if the article does... as an illustration of "contemporary" Romulan ships, without stating that this exact design was used (perhaps even with a note stating that we don't know), the image probably could stay. Question is, is it necessary for the article? -- Cid Highwind 12:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to insist that it's necessary, but the article as it stood was a bit bland, IMO, with just one or two graphics...a few ship pics couldn't do it any harm, as long as they're ships from the appropriate power and contemporary to the time period. YMMV...Capt Christopher Donovan 12:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure, it's a bit bland... but then again, we don't know a whole lot about the war, so it's rather fitting, doncha think? ;) --From Andoria with Love 16:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I maintain that the Romulan BoP seen in Enterprise is the result of the temporal Cold war and these are the real Romulan ships used in the war:

Romulan warshipsRomulanships--Chroniton 16:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Something that was never used on screen in any production, was never canon in any way shape or form, is what you are going to pick? Have fun with that on your own wiki, it isn't going to be used here. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 17:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

If you would actually read the article on Drexfiles that comes with the pictures you will see that the model was specially made for the purpose of representing Romulan ship from the Earth-Romulan War, and despite not being used on screen it has had inspired the look of the Romulans in TNG. Some fans didn't believe in the Deadulus till the model was seen in Sisko's office. So why dismiss these custom designed ships for what Brannon Braga created in Enterprise?

By your argument the Valiant's, (TOS) design in the Encyclopedia should not be canon but it is treated as such.--Chroniton 18:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand the canon policy here- we only use what appeared in the show. Yes, sometimes they did use things created by fans or people outside the production. But they weren't canon until they were on the show. Unless you have direct proof of what you claim, such as someone who worked on the show saying so, you can't use it here.--31dot 18:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Built for Mike Okuda by the lengendary Greg Jein. Sublime art deco design, a Romulan signature echoed in the sets and costumes from the various TV incarnations. Doug Drexler [1]--Chroniton 04:32, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Literality in date estimates

Quote from the article:

• In "Balance of Terror", Spock notes that the Neutral Zone was "established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago." This places the war, at minimum, during the 2160s, but certainly during the mid-22nd century.

Why does everybody take estimates of 50 and 100 years ago literally, like "current" events having on-screen all just happen to be on anniversaries? --Kitch 19:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Considering we say that it might be at any point in the 22nd century, I'd say we are not taking it entirely literally... --OuroborosCobra ^talk 19:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Romulan Symbol?

If the war was hundreds of years before the symbol of the Romulan Empire was changed,why is the new symbol used. Shouldn't it be the symbol we saw before Nemesis or even the tos romulan symbol? – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.66.212.175 (talk).

The "TNG-romulan symbol" is used, because that was established as the symbol romulans used in the mid-22nd century in season 4 episodes of Enterprise. --Pseudohuman 10:34, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Shran & I checked it out a couple days ago and there is actually a new symbol on the walls of the remote control-room. It looks like a modified version of the one seen in Nemesis. --Morder 10:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, but the computer monitors use the TNG-symbol, wall symbol is just art on the wall.--Pseudohuman 10:51, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The correct symbol would be the TOS Romulan symbol seen in the Enterprise Incident.--Chroniton 16:36, 6 Apr--Chroniton 17:32, 6 April 2009 (UTC)il 2009 (UTC)

Did you bother reading the above conversation? Besides, why does it make sense to use a symbol from over a hundred years after the war when we have the symbol they used maybe 5 years before the war? --OuroborosCobra ^talk 16:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

They only used the TNG symbol because that is more widely known to be the Romulan symbol, the correct historical logo would be the TOS symbol. Why drop the patroitic symbol of the eagle just to reuse it 2 centuries later in the TMP era onwards in many forms~? The Romulansd are not that stupid.--Chroniton 16:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

What is "historically accurate" is what is actually on the show, not what you want it to be. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 17:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The war was created before Enterprise and Braga got his hands on canon. The Earth-Romulan War is called the EARTH -Romuluan War for a reason.--Chroniton 17:32, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Funny, since down below you want to treat it as the UESPA-Romulan War. I guess your following of your own canon is only skin deep. Doesn't matter whether the war was "created" before Brannon and Braga were around, the details on it were never established until they did. Also, guess what, the Korean War had tons of other countries in it, like the United States and China and stuff, despite the name. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 17:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Actual dialogue

Do we have different versions of this episode?Because to my hearing Spock clearly says "over a century ago", which by the way makes the beginning of the whole discussions about the date where it was stated that Spock said just" a century ago" quite pointless. The mistake could originate that the online transcripts[2] leave out the tinly little word over. Kennelly 16:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

According to the accurate transcript at [3] Spock says: "a century" Kirk says: "a whole century" and McCoy says: "over a century". and to be exact Spock is talking about the date when the treaty establishing neutral zone was made, Kirk is talking about the last time a romulan ship was seen, and only McCoy is talking about the actual war. --Pseudohuman 10:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I hate to dispute the accuracy of this site but I've seen several errors on that site. This particular one is in error. Spock does say "Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond the moving position of our vessel, a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict of over a century ago.". – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Morder (talk • contribs) .

I would be very leery of trusting that site as well. For the most part it's quite useful, but I could cite several examples of lines attributed to the wrong characters and words left out or spelled in such a way that they have a different meaning. Accurate isn't always the best term to describe it. - Bridge 12:23, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] removed defunct link

Removed the following:

• Conjectural peace treaty - reproduced from the Star Fleet Technical Manual

As the page seems to not exist, however I copied it here in case it is restored at some point. 31dot 00:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alliance involvement

It was recently added to the sidebar that Earth's allies Andor, Tellar, and Vulcan participated in the war, based on the image to the right. Are we treating this as canon? I don't really see a consensus from the last discussion above, and the article doesn't seem to take it into account.– Cleanse ^talk 06:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a tough call. It did appear in the episode, but even with high-definition, it's illegible. In addition, many of the dates are inaccurate and some are pretty random. Then again, none of that has stopped us from including things before. ;) --From Andoria with Love 06:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about you but I can read every word perfectly. Unless that's not the one from the episode. :) --Morder 10:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, this image was the graphic used on the set as supplied to us by Mike Sussman; here's how the image appeared on-screen. :) --From Andoria with Love 13:35, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason for the Coalition to get involved. The Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites would not have thought much of Earth before the Earth-Romulan War. As the Romulans were not attacking them they would just sit back and watch how Earth handles the war. The non interference policy. They would be seen as the new, inexperience youngsters, (with some FUTURE potential),and treated as such, (See Vulcans in Enterprise).--Chroniton 16:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Your opinion on this doesn't matter. Paramount and the writers decide what is canon, and what happened, and they decided the other races were involved. That is canon, not whatever you want it to be. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 16:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Why, when the event they come up with conflict with so much of Star trek history as it has been believed since TOS. The fact that Enterpise is in a divergent tiomeline is suported by in show evidence, (see my theory at the top of this page) by the episode Regeneration and the effects of the Temporal Cold War. If it was fought between more then the humans and romulans it would have been named differently since Roddenberry allowed it to be added to canon. I prefer Rodenberry and Okadua to Braga but please yourself.--Chroniton 17:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

What you "prefer" as canon is irrelevant. We go by what is canon.--31dot 17:47, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

We cannot use this as a reliable source for one reason, the insignia used for the Federation of Planets is wrong going by TOS, TMP, TWOK to Undiscovered Country. http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/federation_emblem.htm The TOS Federation symbol is the letter UFP surrounded by stars on a banner, also it does not agree with the Federation symbols seen in the first 5 star Trek films which featured more primitive versions of the 24th century emblem. Why is a 24th century emblem in the database of a TOS era ship?----Chroniton 11:43, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] We're contradicting ourselves...

We are accepting Colonel Green's first name and the details of his actions as seen in this viewscreen graphic as canon. So why are we not accepting the years in which the Earth-Romulan War was fought? Those years are listed on the graphic, as well. Are we picking and choosing what we like and don't like? (Note: this is not an invitation to move the Green page to another name, that must be discussed first). --From Andoria with Love 06:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The years 2156-2160 should be accepted as canon. No need for the vaguenes. --Pseudohuman 10:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I implemented the changes. With eco-terrorism, Phillip Green and 2160 taking the screen at face value (but noting contradiction) there is no reason not to do the same here. If there are contradictions we follow our normal policy. Here there is none. I rewrote the background info accordingly. While doing so I removed the following as it is now redundant:

• Contrary to the unseen article and the unreadable graphic, no other sources have indicated if this war occurred before or after the founding of the Federation. However, if the succinctly named "Earth-Romulan conflict" is any indication of the involved parties, then this would seem to imply that this event occurred before the foundation of the Federation, and was fought between Earth/Humans, the Romulans, and their respective allies; nothing so specific as the Federation or the Coalition of Planets.

This is exactly the same situation as Daffyduckium and all the horrible in-joke elements we accept from a display in TNG: "Rascals".– Cleanse 06:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The Earth-Romulan war was the reason the Federation was created! It is implied and also would make good common sense. The other powers are suprised by Earth's ability to defeat the Romulans, by pure attirtion--Chronitons 22:38, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Giant logos

Is it just me or are the logos in the sidebar displaying at 292 px? The code in the article has much more reasonable sizes (100 and 120 px respectively) so is this a template problem, a page problem, or something on my end?– Cleanse 03:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

From what I understand, all images within templates are automatically fixed at 292px (or, if it's smaller, the largest possible size) to better conform to Wikia's new and hopefully short-lived style. --From Andoria with Love 04:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, looks like you can still override it - see Template:Sidebar government, which sets a 150px size to avoid the giant logo problem.

But I think I see what's happened here. The template (Template:Sidebar military conflict) at one point must have had such parameters for setting the size of the images, but they aren't in the current code.– Cleanse 04:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Why not use the .U.E.S.P.A. symbol that is Voyager as your supposed to? – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chroniton (talk • contribs) .

UESPA is not a governing body, so we are not "supposed" to use it to represent one. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 16:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The .U.E.S.P.A. was the governing bodie of Earth's space activities. As no battles were fouught on Eath or Romulus it would be better to use the space agencies logo wouldn't it?--Chroniton 16:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

No, not in the slightest would it be better. UESPA was an agency, not a governing body. That would be like using the logo of the US Air Force for the war in Kosovo, rather than the American flag. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 17:08, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Spaceflight Chronology

Why should the Spaceflight Chronology be in background rather than apocrypha? It's a non-canon account, just like the novels. Certainly on this page, the information provided fits much better in the Apocrypha section than the Background section.– Cleanse 11:41, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Because our Memory Alpha:Canon policy lists it as a permitted background resource, just like the Encyclopedia and TM. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 14:22, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Spocks description of early earth ships in 'Balance of Terror'

Hi, Just watching 'Balance of Terror' on the new remastered UK boxsets and noticed Spock talks about early Earth ships in the Romulan war and that ships of that time used atomic weapons and had no ship to ship communications. From Enterprise we know this is not true, just wondering if anyone could shed some light on this :) Thanks – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 92.12.126.236 (talk).

I don't believe it was said there was no ship-to-ship communication, just that there was no visual communication. We know that the treaty ending the war was negotiated over subspace radio. As for the weapons, maybe the Romulans used them, or Earth's allies, or even Earth if they couldn't make photonic torpedoes fast enough, there are many possible answers.--31dot 18:21, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Very good answer, thank you very much. I thought it meant they had no visual communications at all, obviously just meant with the Romulans, which Enterprise did explain, silly me. Thanks for clearing it up :) – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 92.11.37.195 (talk).