Talk:Elim Garak

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Contents 1 Is Garak gay? 1.1 Sexuality explanation 1.2 Is Garek gay? revisited 2 Empok Nor 3 Post-War Removed 4 Quotable Quotes 5 Cardassian-Borg 6 Julius Caesar 7 Category? 8 Life in Obsidian order 9 Tain and Garek's "Betrayal" 10 Appearance on Wings 11 Garak 12 Removed - name origin

[edit] Is Garak gay?

Is Garak gay? He's attached to his mother (perhaps a bit too much), he never really understands why Ziyal is in love with him (maybe because heterosexuality is not his thing), he has impeccable dress sense, he's obviously been to the Cardassian equivilant of a private school and, of course, he is relaxed by sewing. To me, this implies just one thing - Elim Garak is gayer than a treeful of monkeys on laughing gas. –202.161.23.43

I think the Ziyal thing was intended to be "poor little assassin garek is finally taught to love, only to have his heart pulled out when we kill her in a season finale" In fact they say something like that, in the ep where she says "and became teh best tailor in the galaxy!" After reading the article on Wikipedia, I don't think citing it works as they came to the conclusion "maybe he was supposed to be, but was decided against" as every other trek character like this. Also, all of the ones listed above seem to be gay stereotypes, less than proof for sure. I suggest removing the note at the bottom. – AJHalliwell 22:32, 20 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Umm, when I think about it in retrospect, he does seem gay... But until I read it in the article's "background" note, it had never crossed my mind. Can we just remove that note? –Sloan 07:13, 27 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Garak's character was intended to be slick and full of secrets, an ex-spy. I think anybody reading homosexuality into it has fallen for his cover. He's not the type of person to be honest about anything, except being dishonest. So appearances are always intended to be deceiving.–Mike Nobody 14:06, 27 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I think the background note should be removed or at least rewritten too, because as AJ mentioned the presumption seems to be largely based gay stereotypes. I mean, what part of appreciating one's looks and trying to accent them with nice clothing indicates sexual preference? *Scratches head confusedly* – Miranda Jackson ^(Talk) 23:58, 28 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Andrew Robinson certainly believed Elim Garak to be bisexual, and advised Advocate.com of that. Although the actor's revelation is not a canon source, fans cannot be said to have had absolutely no foundation or basis for speculation. –Fenian 04:07, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Can you find a citeable source for this? I'd love to read about it. –Broik 04:10, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I regret that I no longer have access to this article. As I recall, this interview took place around the time Robinson released his book, "A Stitch in Time", wherein Garak also was portrayed as a bisexual. In an interview with Amazon.com, Robinson declares Garak to be neither "gay" nor "straight": http://tinyurl.com/droub Of course, Robinson's speculation is not a canon source - but I believe it provides insight into the character. –Fenian 05:15, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)

While I am not the original poster, I felt that it would be best to follow up the previous post with a proper link, just in case the tinyurl ever expires. Amazon.co.uk: Tailor Made. It's a rather decent interview and it would be a shame to lose track of it again. –Sanfam 03:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed this phrase: "yet he personally believed Elim Garak to be bisexual, and advised Advocate.com of that" - as I have not been able to verify that Robinson made any such statement to the Advocate. I do somehow recall a claim to that effect being made somewhere, and have no reason to disbelieve it - but until I myself (or someone else) can verify that this indeed did occur, this should be regarded as my own speculation only. The interview with Amazon.com clearly did occur, and I provided the link to that on this talk page.--Fenian 10:26, 9 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I see no canon evidence Garak was gay or bisexual. If anything, he was too d*mn cautious about his cover, his survival, to be too sexually active. I wonder why anybody cares. Are we so narrow-minded we have to categorize? On a more important issue, I think something needs to be said about Garrak's obsessive secrecy. It was such an integral part of his character, it needs more attention than it gets. I'd also say we need more about his relationship with Bashir, not least why Garak trusted him. (I wouldn't be surprised Garak had learned Bashir was genetically enhanced, & thus had leverage if he needed it.) –Trekphiler 20:42, 22 Nov 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sexuality explanation

Whatever Garak's sexuality is, the passage as written literally makes no sense. Some fans believe Garak to be either homosexual or bisexual, however on this subject there is no official confirmation concerning the aforesaid; the onscreen development of his subtle romance with Dukat's daughter at least weakens if not negates these speculations.

... how would a romance weaken or negate speculations of bisexuality? Do you konw what the word means?

Andrew Robinson provided non-canon insight into his role when interviewed by Amazon.com, declaring Elim Garak to be neither "gay" nor "straight". This suggests that as the character prefers neither male nor female intimacy, he is asexual.

... again, does somebody here not understand the entire concept of bisexuality? --81.6.218.237 03:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is Garek gay? revisited

Garak is clearly passing so it's obvious that the gay reading will occur to the more perspicacious viewer. Clearly no-one gives a tuppenny damn on moral grounds, it's an aesthetic question. I suggest that he (like 7of9) is CLEVER and that like most clever characters on US telly this is played down so as not to annoy the audience. –83.100.224.248 18:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

For Garak to be "passing", there would have to be a "closet". I'd hope the 24th century wouldn't have the need for such a medieval convention. When some interviewer asked Patrick Stewart whether wasn't there a cure for baldness by the 24th century. He said, "In the 24th century, nobody would care".

What's "clever" anyway? Is that some old-country euphemism for "queer"? –SwishyGarak 20:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Er no, it means 'intelligent'. Are you ignorant of the prejudice that 'clever' characters often face on US tv programmes? –83.100.175.199 16:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

No wonder I didn't know that you weren't talking about the subject of this thread. I am indeed hearing about this ostensible prejudice now for the first time, but I wouldn't say that makes me ignorant, I'd say the allegation makes you both wrong and bigoted. It's demonstrably false. Star Trek itself is entirely predicated on intelligent characters. Even within DS, for example, I don't think you can make any kind of a case that Jadzia Dax, Miles O'Brien, Keiko herself, or Ben Sisko were "downplayed" for being too intelligent. Move on to the dozens of detective shows, where every week a protagonist uses one's intelligence to succeed in bringing someone to justice when the unsympathetic, bumbling cops can't. Or what about the inexplicable popularity of "Macgyver"? That show was insufferable but it ran four as many seasons as any Star Trek series. OK, sou, I'm stopping there, you're just wrong. Do you have any more slurs for the Yanks today? Never mind, keep them to yourself. –SwishyGarak 17:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

This thread has gotten off topic and users have started attacking others. This thread should be taken elsewhere as it has nothing to do with the article. If you wish to continue the discussion about whether Garak is gay fine but stop posting attacks. For the record, there is nothing in canon that says he was gay nor was there any production material that has surfaced that he was gay...and he was in love with ziyal and had a relationship with her...so that means until there is evidence to the contrary he wasn't gay... — Morder 19:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Empok Nor

I may be wrong (It's been a while since I've seen it) but I'm pretty sure Garak only killed one Starfleet officer in that episode; the others were killed by the other three deranged Cardassians.–82.45.253.250 23:45, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)

That sounds right, but I'd have to re-watch the episode to be sure. (Anyone been watching Spike?) Also, please sign your comments with ~~~~. Thanks. --Broik 04:14, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Post-War Removed

• The Federation alliance won the war and Garak returned to his people. What was supposed to be his moment of triumph turned into a pyrrhic victory given the death of 1 billion Cardassians and the destruction of much of Cardassia Prime's infrastructure.
• Garak has since assisted in the rebuilding and recovery of Cardassia, while also supporting reforms for its government. He believes that the Dominion War and destruction of Cardassia was partially caused by its military-led government. The post-war Garak is a wholly different person in this respect, given his extensive ties to the military.

I have removed a section someone created today on Garak after the War. It is speculation or non-canon, I can't tell becuase I don't read trek-books. –Jaz 05:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you shouldn't remove things you aren't familiar with? If it is content from the books shouldn't it go into an "Apocrypha" section?--DannyBoy7783 21:26, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

The point is, that neither books nor speculation are valid here, so it doesn't matter which it is if it isn't on screen. I will not leave something in an article that I know for certain in non-canon, nor can I move it to apocrypha without verification that it is in a book. –Jaz ^{talk | novels} 21:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Novels and comics are perfectly valid so long as they are and indented italicizzed or in apocrypha sections. If you think it looks fishy in some area, remove it and paste here the part you think was made up. --Vedek Dukat ^{Talk | Duty Roster} 23:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

If you need to retrieve it, check the history, however, as of now no one has even been able to verify that it was from a novel, not just fan-fiction. Furthermore, the information was subjective, and in the wrong POV. –Jaz ^{talk | novels} 01:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, don't remove information you know nothing about. It IS from A Stitch in Time. I checked the information. If you believe something needs a source put a source template on the article and bring it up on the talk page so you can specify what exactly it needs. It is better to ask first if you aren't sure. I would suggest you put the information back and fix the POV issue. I don't have time at the moment (sorry) but I can later if you do not.--DannyBoy7783 06:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Chill out, guy. It's been saved. I added text the was removed and not archived by Jaz to the top of this subsection. It still needs to be rewritten for inclusion in the apocrypha section of the article. --Alan del Beccio 07:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotable Quotes

I vote for switching the quote on him to his and Bashir's words at the end of "The Wire"; it's classic. --ChrisK 06:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cardassian-Borg

Garak

Cardassian drone

Is it just me, or doesn't this individual look suspiciously like Elim Garak? --Alan del Beccio 04:51, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been thinking that since the first time I saw the image. My opinion on our use of promotional omages is well known of course, I do not consider them "strictly canon". --OuroborosCobra ^talk 10:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

That wasn't even the question. --Alan 23:19, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you seriously responding to something from three years ago like that? --OuroborosCobra ^talk 08:16, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Julius Caesar

The nearest Garek comes to speaking positively about non-cardassains is in one episode Garek almost admired Julius Caeser as a military genius and conquer {qualities which would possibly appeal to Garek} although he deplores the fact that Caeser was not cunning enough to prevent his own death; prehaps implying that a Cardassian war/hero dictator would be cunning enough to detect a hidden plot against his life-especially from those closest to him-such as Brutus? – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.53.145.193 (talk).

[edit] Category?

If Garak worked for the Obsidian Order, would that mean he was a government official?--31dot 12:16, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd say so. – Cleanse ^talk 12:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Was G. Gordon Liddy a government official? Ollie North? I'd say Garak was a functionary, not an official. –SwishyGarak 21:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

North was, even if Liddy wasn't. North represented the US Government in the Iran-Contra business.--31dot 20:57, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Life in Obsidian order

"Garak was instrumental in the arrest and execution of Gul Dukat's father. (DS9: "The Wire")" I just watched that episode. This is not mentioned in it. Must be from somewhere else. –Chimeradave Aug 6, 2008

[edit] Tain and Garek's "Betrayal"

Its a bit of a pity that inconclusive hints are given out what was Garek's "Betrayal" of Tain; possibly the fact could be that not only is Garek Tain's son-but that Garek is a double "danger" to Tain-Tain conceived Garek in a matter of "Weakness"; a son who not only proves himself a master at lying and intrigue than his own father/spymaster but is also {like his mother} is a reminder that Taim let his heart {!} rule over him-instead of his head. That is Garek's "Betrayal" -the very fact that he exists as a witness that just once his father acted from "Love" and not DUTY!!!! – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.53.145.70 (talk).

[edit] Appearance on Wings

Moved to Talk:Andrew Robinson#Appearance on Wings

[edit] Garak

I have always found Garak to be a very complex and fascinating character, even more so than Dukat (which was no two-dimensional character either). Sometimes I felt that Garak was more Dukats opposite than Sisko ever could be, don't you all think?

But then again Cardassians makes for fascinating villains and anti-heros. Always in the shadows, behind the curtains when they do things.--The Picard 17:43, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Removed - name origin

Removed the following:

The character Garak's first name, Elim, is taken from the Bible locality (referenced at Exodus 15:27 & Numbers 33:9) where the Hebrew nation encamped shortly after divine liberation from Egypt (as detailed in chapters 3–15 of Exodus); in the modern era, this geographic site is traditionally associated with the Sinai Peninsula's Wadi Gharandel oasis. The Hebrew name Éylim denotes "big trees", for the Hebrew people found it to have 70 tall date palm trees. The Cardassian surname Garak is actually anglicized Arabic, derived from the Egyptian town of Gharaq el Sultani, Al Fayyum which lies situated far west in relation to the Sinai Peninsula.

Without a citation from a member of the production staff to say this is where the name comes from, it's just speculation. -- Michael Warren | Talk 11:59, 3 May 2009 (UTC)