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Talk:Khan Noonien Singh

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[edit] The name "Singh"

I wonder that no one's pointed out that "Singh" is the traditional shared name of almost all Sikh men (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh#Sikh_Names). --207.134.56.158 14:37, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good call. In the non-canon Eugenic Wars books, Khan is explicitly identified as a Sikh. He also speaks Punjabi, it appears.
Actually, he's identified as a Sikh in "Space Seed". Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels just explain niggling little details like why Khan, a Sikh, is wandering around with short hair, and all clean-shaven. IanWatson 22:33, 27 Jul 2005 (UTC)
I believe "Space Seed" calls him a Sikh, but he does not wear any of the traditional Sikh ojbects (the turban, bracelet, and dagger). Sikhism is basically an egalitarian belief system not compatible with being an elitist megalomaniac superhuman, .--GreatBear 06:53, 9 Jan 2006 (UTC)
  • In Marla McGivers' painting of Khan, he is wearing a turban. Presumably that is from contemporary photos of him.
  • I suspect the Botany Bay launched with little time for niceties. So he may not have had an opportunity to take things with him like a turban or dagger.
  • The episode does not definitively identify him as a "Sikh". Marla McGivers says upon seeing Khan that he is "probably a Sikh", based only on his appearance. Since a Sikh is - of course - a religious rather than ethnic or national affiliation, I think that shows wishful thinking on her part. Especially as she then gushes about what wonderful warriors they were, and wouldn't it be wonderful if he was one, and my is it getting hot in here? At least, if you read between the lines :)
  • As to the name "Singh", it dates back to at least the 8th Century; Sikhism did not exist until the late 16th to early 17th Centuries.
  • One of the Sikh articles of faith is to have uncut hair. Khan had long, but not uncut, hair and no beard. However, not all Sikhs today wear turbans or grow long hair, so that's just a data point.
  • Bottom line: we have no real proof he is - or is not - a Sikh. Aholland 16:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
All good points. Does this amount to an objection to the line "Khan's background was suspected to be Sikh"? or should it be limited to include "Indian"? --Aurelius Kirk 16:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
No objection. It was suspected by McGivers, even if on the flimsiest of evidence. So it is a true statement without definitively saying he was a Sikh. I think it straddles the point nicely. Aholland 17:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Most Sikhs are Punjabis and Jatts at that. Jatt is considered the 'warrior race' of Punjabis and was even classified as such by the British during their rule in India. Considering Sikhism is a peaceful religion, it might me prudent to invoke the ethnic background (Jatt) which prides itself on its martial culture rather than the religious background. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.27.134.122 (talk).

[edit] Major rewrite

I noticed a bunch of little errors and deviation from canon. Fixing them was quickly creating an article that didn't read very well, so I ended up with a top-down rehab. I meant no disrespect to the previous contributors, their work was the foundation for my re-write. It was just easier for me to approach it this way, and it think it's an over-all improvement.

All information is based on his appearances in "Space Seed" and Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. I refer to his Sikh "background" rather than implying he embraced the Sikh culture. I don't think we can canonically establish McGivers was the wife he referred to in TWOK, so I just use his references to "my beloved wife" and "her", as he said. There were a number of factual errors, and errors resulting from many edits over time.

I'll nominate this for Featured Article removal, after a little time has passed and nobody thinks my version deserves a total revert. --Aurelius Kirk 19:28, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes in TWOK section

The indented and italicized quotes: why are they here? I haven't seen anything like them on any other page. They are good quotes, but I don't think they belong where they are, in between text. If anything they belong in a quotes section. Any thoughts? Vash The Stampede 21:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think that if they add to the article/character, they are alright. Indented and italicized quotes are common in episode summaries, especially for log entries (in my "The Naked Now" summary, I placed 'Engage!' at the bottom). - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 21:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Either that (move to quotes section), or we should find another way to format "inline quotes" (maybe even using a {{quote|QUOTETEXT|QUOTEREFERENCE}} template if those are here to stay. Indented-and-italicized is already used for background info, it might be confusing to have other information formatted as such. -- Cid Highwind 21:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Year of Botany Bay Launch

This is a very good article. I noticed, though, the launch of the Botany Bay was firmly stated at 1996. It could have been 1996, but all we know is that Khan's reign over a quarter of Earth ended in 1996. Whether it ended all at once or was whittled away over time is not known. So the launch could have been 1996 or could have been later. I suggest it be amended to "sometime during or after 1996", since he couldn't have left pre-1996. Aholland 16:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I know there's some ambiquity on this issue, and I did my best to address it when I took that issue on. The paragraph starts with Khan escaping the wars in 1996, but the exact date of launch was left up in the air. My hope was to suggest what the episode implied, but didn't nail down. As it stands, I don't think Botany Bay's launch is firmly stated. But since a second pair of eyes feels differently, I'll scan through "Space Seed" to reconstruct my reasoning and try again. --Aurelius Kirk 16:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
For clarity, when I said that 1996 was "firmly stated", I meant in the article, not the episode. The line is "Khan escaped the wars and their consequences in 1996, along with 84 followers who swore to live and die at his command." I may have overread the text to imply that the Botany Bay launched that year. But even if not, the escape - in whatever form - may or may not have been in 1996. We don't know and that's my only point. I would restate it as "Khan escaped the wars and their consequences sometime after late 1996, along with 84 followers who swore to live and die at his command." (But it is a minor flaw in an otherwise brilliant article.) Aholland 16:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Wow, after a second look, I'm not sure what the ambiguity is anymore! In TWOK, Khan says "...Never told you how the Enterprise picked up the Botany Bay, lost in space from the year 1996..." That pretty much puts the BB on it's way in 1996. If you have something that cancels this, remind me. --Aurelius Kirk 17:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Wow, indeed. My apologies - no change is needed. (You might even consider highlighting the point!) My initial view that the article was well done has proven more correct than my own faulty memory. Aholland 18:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
No need to apologize, now we have that fact nailed down! You got me looking at the article again, and I've made little fixes throughout. The Botany Bay launch paragraph is slightly modified to reflect the TWOK quote, and I dropped the sentence regarding "Singh" as an indicator of Sikh-dom (based on your notes above). --Aurelius Kirk 19:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jatt??

Someone just added to the article that "Khan's ethnic background was Jatt (most likely Sikh) from the northern region of India." Unless someone has something from a valid resource to back this up, it should be reverted to nothing more than speculation as to Sikh and nothing as to Jatt. Aholland 16:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, I'll change it back and if someone has something to validate the introduction of Jatt please note it back here. Aholland 18:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
In Lt. Marla McGivers's professional opinion, Khan was most likely a Sikh, she said so while she was aboard Botany Bay. As to whether you have to be a Jatt to be a Sikh? I dunno. Could use some research. -- Captain M.K.B. 03:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Please see the earlier discussions on this page, which showed that McGivers was engaging in pure speculation as to Khan being Sikh. As above, a Sikh is a religious affiliation that cannot be determined by appearance alone, and anyone can be one if they so choose. And Khan did not have any of the traditional 20th Century visual cues for potentially being a Sikh (long hair, beard, dagger, turban, etc.) Although it seems unnecessary to have examined this much further since "Jatt" wasn't mentioned by anyone, just so you know it is not necessary to be a Jatt (or Jat, depending on your preference) to be a Sikh, and not all Jatts are Sikhs (many are Hindu and Muslim, for example). But you are welcome to look into it further if you think that there is a valid resource that states that Khan was a Jatt. Aholland 04:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Random Curiosity

So this has bothered me for some time. How on earth did Khan get that ST Movie-era necklace to wear? It is most certainly not from the original series. That's always bothered me... --Beyerku 21:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, there has not been any canon explanation, but if I remember correctly, Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars books revealed that the necklace belonged to Marla McGivers – in fact, I think it was given to her by Chekov. --From Andoria with Love 09:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
For all we know, it was an antique from some uniform style we've never seen before... -- Captain M.K.B. 13:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the implication in TWOK -- I don't know if it was the writers' implication or the director's -- was that the necklace was McGivers' or came from McGivers. Certainly, Khan had no love for Starfleet and it is difficult to imagine any other reason why he'd wear that thing. On the other hand, it's not inconceivable that it was made part of the costume in order to draw attention to Ricardo Montalban's chest.
Well, more like it was there to draw attention -away- from the conspicuous boundary between Khan's smooth, muscular chest and his wrinkled old neck... --63.106.93.177 00:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Not to beat a dead horse, but I suppose my reason for bringing it up is that the necklace is a ST movie-era insignia, not TOS era. McGivers could have given it to him - if she had a movie-style uniform.--Beyerku 20:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The Starfleet insignia around Khan's neck in Wrath of Khan is a broken uniform buckle taken from a slain crew member aboard the USS Reliant. It is known as the "Buckle Necklace" according to the Star Trek: The Experience at the Las Vegas Hilton. (updated on Khan's bio page in background section) --68.239.144.43 18:00, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Khan and the "secret code"

I don't know about the interpretations in this paragraph:

"Unable to decipher Spock's sophisticated code language, Khan expected Enterprise would take two days to effect basic repairs. Upon the discovery of his prey – underway at full impulse power, and bound for the obscuring clouds of the Mutara Nebula – Khan hesitated at Joachim's advice, and started to abandon pursuit. With a ship of his own, Genesis at his disposal, and Kirk marooned in a rock, he could afford to let the Enterprise run away."

The "sophisticated code language" line is pure comedy gold. I love it. But apart from the fact that it's hard to imagine Kirk and Spock being so happy about such a retarded code, and the fact that apparently the others on the planet didn't get it, what real evidence is there that Khan didn't understand it? His reaction "not as wounded as we were led to believe" - doesn't truly imply that Khan was suckered. He didn't seem -that- surprised, you know? It seems as likely Khan could have suspected the truth or simply seen straight through the code - it doesn't make a lot of difference since Reliant had not yet caught up to Enterprise again.

And as for hesitation at the nebula - Khan never "started to abandon pursuit". He hesitated. And Kirk wouldn't have -stayed- marooned if the Enterprise got away, Enterprise would have gotten away from the comm interference and called in some reinforcements. I don't think Khan would've let the Enterprise escape: Kirk's taunt just served to piss him off, making him rush in carelessly. --63.106.93.177 00:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The Anonymous User makes some excellent points, and I've revised that section accordingly. As far as Khan being fooled (or not), I think "Not so wounded as we were led to beleive" can be taken fairly literally - I don't recall Khan habitually speaking with irony. --Aurelius Kirk 19:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from FA nomination page

[edit] Khan Noonien Singh

Self-nomination. One of the most detailed character articles I've done so far. -- Dan Carlson 20:05, 10 May 2004 (CEST)

Archived, originally stated as a "successful nomination" by User:MinutiaeMan on 15:17, May 24, 2004. Not really sure how that worked out, but it seems to have been renominated. --Alan del Beccio 22:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Khan Noonien Singh

Well thought out, it has that "dramatic flair" that some of the better written articles have, it's detailed and informative with pictures and some great quotes to back it up. - AJ Halliwell 01:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Support. Extremely well written and accurate, great photos and quotes. This should definitely be a Featured Article. --Captain MAJ =/\=|**** 15:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. The monkeys told me to do it. --OuroborosCobra talk 15:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - Make it so, a great read, not too long, great pictures. - Enzo Aquarius 23:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Very well written, and the Legacy section ties all of the history together quite nicely. -- Jaz talk 23:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Well-written, thoroughly detailed, and most importantly - accurate. Just what makes a featured article. -- Krevaner 23:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
No mention of the Voyager episode "Future's End"? Its the ONLY episode of Star Trek to take place during Khan's reign. That HAS to bare a significance strong enough for at least a mention. Its one thing to ignore the episode, at least in regards to canon (which I do, although I enjoy it immensely), but this site operates on the basis of canon uber-alles. I respect it for that. So... there should be SOME mention of the 1996 Earth seen in that episode. I refrain from editing the page, as it was a featured article, which was precisely why I read the Khan page at all... so... at least you can rest assured that featuring pages increases viewership.  ;)

[edit] Enterprise Augments

Someone needs to take that Enterprise "augment" junk out of this article. We don't know that Khan is one, even if Enterprise tried to attach the term to the Eugenics Wars. I don't believe Archer & Co. ever referred to Khan as one. 74.73.74.241 02:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

No... but Malik did. The "junk" stays. --From Andoria with Love 07:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

This page has been protected due to recent vandalism from an apparent terrorist... or so Fox News would have us believe. --From Andoria with Love 20:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Ultimate Paradox

I wonder if this could make it in somehow as a background note either to this article or an article about time travel or perhaps alternate timelines. Although perhaps it’s pure conjecture. But just imagine this as the ULTIMATE paradox:

Kirk and crew go back in time to 1986 in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home but instead of finding the whales they land the Bird of Prey in Asia and find Khan Noonian Singh. At this point, five years before Khan’s rise to power, he’s around 27 or 28 years old. Kirk KILLS Khan as a young man. Thus history is changed. Khan dies in 1986, does not rise to power in 1992 and does not escape on the Bounty Bay in 1996. Kirk and crew do NOT encounter him in "Space Seed" and he does not get exiled to Ceti Alpha V and does not seek revenge in 2286. Spock does not die, the entire plot of Star Trek III is avoided, and Star Trek IV never happens. Thus Kirk could not go back in time to kill Khan in the first place.

Imagine that! It gives me a headache. -FleetCaptain 15:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this would be appropriate for a background note. If this was allowed, then almost any speculation could be allowed, and then MA would just be pages of speculation instead of articles.--31dot 20:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

My feeling as well. I'm also very curious also if that idea has ever appeared in a comic book or novel. Might go write such a novel myself... -FleetCaptain 20:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this is nothing but idle speculation. You could post it on the trekbbs or a similar site but it has absolutely no relevance here on MA, neither on the article page, nor its talk page. --Jörg 21:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that's being a bit harsh saying it has no relevance here. And my original question stands if this has ever been mentioned in a novel or comic book. Maybe not about the paradox, but my next question would be whether or not a b-ground note in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home might be in order. Thats a discussion for over at that article, though. -FleetCaptain 21:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Khan's Age

With "his age being correct" as Spock said in "Space Seed" can we pin down Khan as being born in the 1960s? "Borderland" tells us that augments are born just like everyone else and have to grow up the normal way. Therefore, if Khan was say 33 in 1996 (Ricardo Montalban was 46 when the episode was made), that would have him being born in 1963. Perhaps we can flush that out a bit; I for one find it intersting since genetic engineering in the 1960s was nowhere CLOSE to the abilities neccesary to create an augment. The only other way to explain Khan's age would be that he "created" later on, in the 80s or 90s, and given some kind of accelerated growth. There already exists a note on the 1960s page; I'm wondering if it can be expanded and tied to canon. -FleetCaptain 21:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

One thing to remember is that Arik Soong was fairly limited in his resources, even dependent on the Orions IIRC. It is possible that the 20th century born augments had an advantage of some sort of technologically accelerated growth, "coming out of the tube" as an adult, while Dr. Soong had to go the old fashioned way due to both restrictions in resources and technology banned along with the rest of the Eugenics work. Granted, this is speculation, but given that TOS mostly depicted 1960s as having a similar level of technology to the real 1960s, I think it is likely. --OuroborosCobra talk 22:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Genetic engineering in the 24th century

I'm a bit perplex about this paragraph:

Khan and his augment brethren were considered so dangerous that even four centuries later, genetic engineering was banned throughout the United Federation of Planets in order to avoid creating another tyrant like Khan. A black market in the genetic manipulation of children with limited abilities continued, however, resulting in the enhancement of humans like Dr. Julian Bashir. (DS9: "Doctor Bashir, I Presume")

Despite existing bans (see the discussion here), genetic engineering was openly pursued by Federation in the 24th century at the Darwin Genetic Research Station. (TNG: "Unnatural Selection")

I think the text should be somewhat rephrased. Triggerator 09:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong with it? It's all canon, and reads well.– Cleanse 01:28, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure, it's canon, but canon sources clash a bit here (despite the ban, some genetic engineering research was going on, not only in the black market). To me, the text above seems to provide an incomplete description of the situation. Triggerator 10:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

A background note was added at Darwin Genetic Research Station on this very topic. -FleetCaptain 12:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, certainly the issue is well addressed in other pages in MA as you point out, but still the text in Khan's page (a FA) seems not ideal. But it looks it's just my problem so I'll drop it :) Triggerator 13:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Speculation

If it had not been for Khan's actions, Kirk and the crew would have been in no position to do anything, and Earth would have lost suitability for human life, if not destroyed entirely

Someone removed the above speculation - I'm putting it here for archival purposes. — Morder 22:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

This is kind of already covered anyway in the last background note that speaks of how ST:II led to III which led to IV which led to Kirk and company going back in time to save the whales. -FC 23:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, and honestly, I'm not sure that entire paragraph belongs. --OuroborosCobra talk 23:24, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that it belongs. Statements like that could be made about a lot of aspects of Trek.--31dot 23:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Exactly. The entire paragraph putting the rescue of Earth from the Whale Probe in Khan's legacy is an extreme use of the word. --OuroborosCobra talk 00:23, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
A little late, but I removed the paragraph to here.
Ironically, Khan's actions in 2285 saved countless lives on Earth. In the wake of his reprieve from Ceti Alpha V, Admiral James T. Kirk and his crew were in transit to Earth from Vulcan in 2286. Unaffected by the Whale Probe that crippled local Starfleet vessels and besieged Earth, they were able to resolve the crisis, and saved the planet from environmental devastation. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home)
--31dot 20:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
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