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Talk:SS uniforms and insignia

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[edit] SS Major

I'd like to add a picture of the four pip SS-Major insignia in the Background section under the justification that it is an implied insignia, since we have seen the insignia right below it and the insignia right above it. Any objections? I won this battle over at United States military insignia with one and two star general and teh idea of implied ranks is used with the senior TOS Admiral ranks over at Starfleet ranks. I just dont want someone to delete the picture as non-canon five minutes after I upload it. -FleetCaptain 10:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "intro pic" removed

Since there seems to be some controversy... I removed this image for the following reasons:

  1. I feel an "intro pic" is unnecessary in an article that mainly consists of dozens of images anyway.
  2. The way this intro pic was formatted looked really ugly: no border, no description text because it wasn't included as "thumb".
  3. I feel that it is absolutely unnecessary to have an image showcasing the "Hitlergruß" on top of an article that is only tangentially related. I think this may have been added for "shock value" more than anything else - if not, and there's a consensus to have some image there despite of the other problems mentioned, let's find a more neutral image.

-- Cid Highwind 21:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

It is standard practice on Memory Alpha to display "introduction images" to most articles. I just browsed Category:Technology and found dozens of such images on dozens of such articles. Forgive me, but it really appears you removed the image because you don't like the subject matter. This article doesnt glorify Hitler, as you suggest with your German phrase which translates as "Hiter is Great". Take a look at my user page; I'm a World War II historian and United States military officer and I wrote this article out of historical interest in the apperance of SS insignia in Star Trek episodes and for no other reason. -FleetCaptain 21:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Still, the image is not necessary. An image showing different varieties of the uniform, like people wearing those uniforms standing next to each other (like on the various Starfleet uniform pages) would be more appropriate. I find the current image offensive as well, there is sure to be a better image to intriduce and sum up the article than the current one. --Jörg 21:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I'll respect the majority but may I say when dealing with Star Trek episodes about Nazis and World War II, removing material based on personal feelings opens up some dangerous doors. I've studied World War II for several years and brush it off rather easily, but I do work with WWII vets and I'm sure there are those out there who think this entire article shouldn't be here in the first place. Not that either of the people above have said that (becuase they haven't). I thumbnailed the image and the opening paragraph should have some kind of into picture much like the SS article has the Guardian of Forever shot as its intro. I'm open to suggestions and I guess if a large number of people don't want a picture up top then we can remove it. -FleetCaptain 22:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Good solution with whoever changed the picture to eliminate the salute! -FleetCaptain 22:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. And, just in case someone else is reading this - the "Hitler salute" ("Hitlergruß") is what I had in mind the whole time - I didn't try to accuse anyone of glorifying anything... ;) -- Cid Highwind 22:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

In the film "Europa Europa" there is a scene where Soloman Perel jumps back and forth between standing at attention and giving the salute then breaks out into a dance. Much like the two pictures you just worked on if put side by side. Thats a great film by the way, especially in the original German. BTW! I nominated this guy for Featured Article status. Guess we'll see what happens. Best -FleetCaptain 22:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kirk's rank patch

Not to detract from the discussion above, but an example of why I found this material so interesting was the uniform that Kirk wears when he is disguised as a Gestapo officer. The collar insignia actually isn't an SS rank patch. Its a modification of one where it looks like the rank pips were sewn across as a straight line and then swen on top of the enlisted silver rank piping. I wonder if thats the way the uniform came or if the wardrobe department did a "quick fix" to make Kirk look like an officer.

I've also always wondered how Leonard Nimoy must have felt producing this episode, being Jewish as he is and spening the majority of the time wearing swastikas and SS insignia. I guess to him it was probably just a job. -FleetCaptain 22:11, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

As an aside, in the FA nomination discussion, I mentioned the following:
For example, regarding Kirk's insignia, I imagine the following scene - Head of costuming department to random guy: "Here, this is supposed to be Shatner's uniform. Attach a shoulder patch here, it needs to have a border, two bars, and three pips across, because we want Shatner to be an SS Hauptmann." Random guy takes uniform, and screws up by attaching the pips incorrectly, and in one case even using a gold pip from a shoulder board.
After reviewing the scene in question, I believe that this can't be too far from the truth. In that scene, Spock (as "Leutnant" according to dialogue, and "Oberleutnant" according to his patch) and Kirk (unknown rank, but obviously superior to Spock), are exposed by a "Major", who has to be superior to both of them in this situation. The only rank between Oberleutnant and Major is "Hauptmann". Interestingly, Kirk's uniform didn't have this rank patch in the scene before (it was a simple "Leutnant" there).
Also, I'm not really sure Kirk's patch really has two double-bars in that scene - it looks just like Spock's with just one double-bar. -- Cid Highwind 21:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Fourth General

This guy almost escaped me since he's only visable for a few seconds. he wears a rank patch that is totally made up! I added him to the article. Pretty neat! -FleetCaptain 00:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Insignia questions

I'm currently trying to recreate the shoulder patches to get a consistent look. I need advice on the following:

Ekos Lance Corporal
Shows a borderless patch, but the screenshot suggests a patch with border, one bar, no pip.
Ekos Corporal
Shows a borderless patch, but the screenshot suggests a patch with border, no bar, one pip.
Ekos General
Patch shown has a pip in the upper left corner. The screenshot, however, has the pip in the lower left corner of the patch and, apparently, a different leaf shape.

What's the matter here? -- Cid Highwind 20:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] From Nominations for Feature-article

The following text is the discussion about this page becoming a Featured Article. -- Rom Ulan 14:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SS uniforms and insignia

Nomination proposed for SS uniforms and insignia. This article has been painstakingly researched to discuss, describe, and display every SS insignia and uniform seen in all series of Star Trek. Dark subject matter to be sure, but very comprehensive and worthy of featured article status. -FleetCaptain 22:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Support. Good article, I really like the part that all ranks have an image displaying a character wearing the particular rank. Otherwise, a good article that greatly covers the subject in matter. Dark subject or not, this has appeared in Star Trek canon, therefore we wrote an article about it (well, mostly FleetCaptain). and now, some of us think this is a good example of bla bla bla, you know the drill ;-). -- Rom Ulan 22:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Support - Wow, for a uniform article that is meant to be like a list, this is well done! - Adm. Enzo Aquarius...I'm listening 04:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Support -- I felt bad uploading two or three insignia and then never having time to complete the analysis of the episodes in question, this collaboration has truly come full circle! Cheers! -- Captain MKB 04:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Support. I have to say, amazingly done. I especially love how all of the insignia have screenshots showing their use on-screen in addition to the graphic of the actually insignia. Excellent touch. We should be doing that with all of our uniform/rank articles, I think. --OuroborosCobra talk 05:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Support. What they said :P – Cleanse 11:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Support. The insignia for major could use a better image. Otherwise, outstanding article for all the above reasons. -- Connor Cabal 13:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I am honored by such support from this community. You guys are the best. -FleetCaptain 14:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, thats true. Trouble is the costume department apparently just made up a "major insignia" by taking the thiner Standartenfuhrer (Colonel) leaf and streching it out to look like the larger United States Major leaf. By all rights, the guy should have worn four pips, but the viewing audience would have releated more to a major wearing a "major's leaf" which is why they did it that way. -FleetCaptain 14:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Guess what! I just redid the Ekos Major insignia per your suggestion. It took some doing, but I made it clean and neat like the other insignia. Good suggestion, it looks much better. -FleetCaptain 14:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment. Has this article had a Peer Review? I proposed an article for Featured status some time ago and did not submit it for review first, though I understand that articles for Featured consideration should be. What is the difference between Peer Review and what we have done above? Should there be/has there been a streamling of the procedure? -- Connor Cabal 15:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

No peer review was conducted. I didnt see that as a pre-req for the FA nomination but might have missed. Given the support above, can we possibly waive such a requirement? -FleetCaptain 15:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

"Peer review" is not required for an FA nomination, AFAIK. The difference between them is that peer review is used to get help from the community doing final touch ups and perfection of an article, and an FA nomination claims that it is already at that "perfection" (of course there is no such thing) level. If you think that an article is already at that level without a peer review, then as far as I know (or care), nominate it for FA. --OuroborosCobra talk 15:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Minor oppose & Comment. Comment first: Peer Review can be requested independently of an FA nomination, and in most cases it is a good idea to do so because that moves some of the possible opposition to an earlier step. Without a separate Peer Review proces (which is entirely possible), the FA nomination will inevitably become such process... ;) Which leads me to my opposing vote: There isn't too much textual content in this article, but I already seem to be in an overwhelming minority regarding this. However, if an article consists of mostly images, at least those (and their layout) should be of best possible quality.
Regarding images, I see some insignia images with dark or transparent background, while others have a relatively ugly white background/border. Some have a thin outline, others a thick one. Some of the insignia are slightly tilted/misaligned. The "Major" collor insignia has serious compression artifacts. It would be great if this could be fixed before this nomination went through. Eventually, I could even be of some help, if time allows on the weekend.
Regarding layout, it would be nice if the tables would be aligned. We have one 4-column table, then two 3-column table, all with slightly different widths. Maybe the latter two could be combined into another 4-column table, set to the same width as the first one? -- Cid Highwind 15:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

To answer your concerns:

  1. The Major insignia was just fixed and is about as good as its going to get. It matches almost exactly the major insignia worn in "Patterns of Force" which was itself a hodge-podge of the episode costumer department where they streched a Colonel's leaf and put in one one collar. As stated above, this was becuase a "major" to the U.S. viewing audience should have an oak leaf, so thats what the costumers gave the character. Can I assume that you agree this insignia is now as good as its going to get?
  2. The enlisted insignia have no borders while the officers do since this was how the SS separated officer and enlisted insignia. That is actually not a mistake.
  3. I can match the background on all the insignia. That shouldn't be too hard. I don't really see where insignia are misaligned, at least not on my browser.
  4. Not sure how to fix tables. The German insignia table is intentially separate from the Ekos tables since on Ekos collar patches and shoulde rboards were to completely separate categories whereas the German earth versions had them combined to match (Ekos did not match which is why they are separate)
  5. The text content is actually, in my view, very comprehensive and covers ever aspect of these insignia. Not sure what else we can add in.

I will fix all the backgrounds. What else would you like to see in order to change your vote? -FleetCaptain 15:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Support. Well done, it looks excellent.--31dot 00:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Re:Fleet Captain - Regarding the Major insignia, I'm not really sure it is simply a "stretched Colonel's leaf". The shape looks completely different, and actually "stretching" a physically existing insignia would have been out of the question anyway. However, it would probably look a lot nicer if, instead of that "pixel lump", we had an edited version of one of the existing insignia (and, BTW, the Colonel insignia on the linked WP page looks different from ours, what's up with that?).

Nvertheless, what you see on the page is about as good as I could get it with my imaging software. Also, don't see a problem with the Colonel leaf. It matches the leaf worn by McCoy and Karr for the most part. -FleetCaptain 14:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

With "tilted/misaligned", I was referring to things like this - see how the image "hangs" towards the lower right corner?

We will have to deal with specific insginia issues. As for the one above, it was very hard to find since it is an SS-dress shoulder insignia for the black uniform. I surely hope an objection to the article won't be because its off by a few milli-meters. -FleetCaptain 14:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Finally, regarding table, I didn't suggest to merge the "German" and "Ekosian" tables, but to merge the two Ekosian tables to create one that looks like the German one. I'm going to move the first Ekosian table to a 4-column layout to help you with that, but am not expert enought to correctly merge the second one into that. -- Cid Highwind 12:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that will work since, on Ekos the shoulder insignia and the collar insignia do not pair up like they do in Germany. I have an idea on how to fix this but it would mean an overhaul of the entire article. But, maybe thats what it needs.

Adding: Image file formats - I just corrected one, but then found out that there are several of those... screenshots should be JPG, not PNG. This needs to be corrected. -- Cid Highwind 13:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I will leave that up to you if you can change them over. Issues with the image format shouldn't directly affect whats in the article. If this comes around again to FA status, I hope that won't be the single hangup.

As there appears to be some major issues with the way the page is laid out, and C.H. is now working on removing pictures and changing columns (and I intend a major revamp now as well), best to transfer this to the talk page. -FleetCaptain 14:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

As mentioned elsewhere, I started work on the various insignia graphics (at the moment, here, might move that to a subpage of the article talk later). While doing so, I found that in some cases, rank and insignia, or insignia and screenshot, don't really match up - so, in addition to the above "stylistic" concerns, there seem to be factual issues as well. Also, while discussing this with Jörg on IRC yesterday, he found out that there are additional insignia which aren't even mentioned in the article yet, and some costuming issues that would make nice additional background notes (for example, Spock's insignia switching between one and no pip between scenes, Kirk's insignia consisting of differently colored pips in some scenes, etc.). All in all, I'd say it would be best to not continue this FA nomination at the moment, but instead move all this to the talk or a peer review page. I'm going to continue my work on the insignia graphics for the moment... -- Cid Highwind 13:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I think most of the insignia matches, except for the General insignia which is reversed (easy to fix) and maybe McCoy's Colonel leaf which is a little bit "flater" than the insignia worn by Karr. In that case, we're talking about it being so minor that its barely noticable. The rest of the insignia, espeically Kirk's Gestapo insignia, are exactly as seen in the episodes.

I noticed those costume goofs as well but kept them out of the article per MA's policies on listing episode goofs in articles. If that's lifted in this case, then by all means I can put it in.

This can be moved ot the talkpage; I'll provide insignia replacements for the questionable ones as time permits into next week and probably the week after that die to my work schedule. Until then. -FleetCaptain 14:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Pending a partial move of this discussion, let's continue here for the moment. The question in this case is - where does "episode goof" begin, exactly?
For example, regarding Kirk's insignia, I imagine the following scene - Head of costuming department to random guy: "Here, this is supposed to be Shatner's uniform. Attach a shoulder patch here, it needs to have a border, two bars, and three pips across, because we want Shatner to be an SS Hauptmann." Random guy takes uniform, and screws up by attaching the pips incorrectly, and in one case even using a gold pip from a shoulder board.
That would make it a goof, which ended up becoming a canon SS insignia of planet Ekos... ;) Similarly, the current background section of the article already makes note of shown insignia combinations not matching those of the German SS. It wouldn't make much of a difference to show and explain some others as well... -- Cid Highwind 14:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The main goofs occur at the start of the episode when Spock and Kirk steal uniforms and the insignia changes by the time they get to Nazi HQ. There is also a shot of Spock getting out of a car with a single pip on his collar and walking into the HQ building suddenly without a pip. Then of course the famous "Major" who wears a colonel leaf but this might not be a goof since on Ekos SS-Majors might have worn such an insignia.

Regarding the enlisted personnel, such as as the SS-torturer and HQ guard who wear officer boards with enlisted collar patches, I am going to rewrite this entire section to reflect that this is some kind of special service/headquarters branch that might have a different insignia scheme. So, in the end, the boards and collar not matching up might not be a goof either.

BTW- The SS-Brigadier is actually wearing a Gauleiter patch and he isnt called a Brigadier in any scene. I will fix this as well.

Last but not least, did some SERIOUS thinking about McCoy. He is actually not wearing an Ekos-SS uniform. He is wearing the Enterprise computer's recreation of a 1944 SS-Colonel uniform (with the boots too tight :-)). In addition, he wears no medals and appears to have a Wehrmacht General's overcoat. An entire secton devoted to McCoy might be in order.

So, much revamping to be done. FAC removed from main article page and I'll start working on this over the week. Best. -FleetCaptain 14:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shoulder patches from TOS:PoF, with time index

The following is a list of various shoulder patches from TOS: "Patterns of Force". It may well be incomplete or slightly inaccurate, but should be a good start to complete this article:

time index patch color border #bars #pips or other info
05.10 yellow dotted 0 0
05.10 red no 0 0
05.25 yellow no 0 0 right shoulder patch, seems to display a character
05.55 black no 0 1
06.50 black ? 0 4
07.10 black no 0 3
07.40 red no 0 0 same as from 05:10
07.50 black solid 1-2 3 Spock, referred to later as Lieutenant
08.05 black solid 0 3 "Gestapo, I believe". Uniform later worn by Kirk, switches shoulder patch between scenes
08.35 black solid 0 leaf "Major"
08.35 black solid 0 0
08.45 black solid 1-2? 3, misaligned Kirk, same uniform as above
09.40 black dotted 1-2 1
10.00 black solid 0 0
19.05 black no or dotted? 1 0 same guy as 20.25
20.25 black solid 2 0 same guy as 19.05
21.15 black solid 0 leaf leaf probably RFSS
29.00 black solid 0 1
29.10 Kirk back to "3-pips, misaligned"; also, someone addressed as "Corporal"
30.45 black dotted 0 0 Spock
33.00 black solid 0 leaf McCoy; uniform from Enterprise; requested to be: "Gestapo Doctor - Colonel" at 32.00
34.30 several in one scene, including another RFSS on red background?
36.30 red no? 0 strange leaf looks more like a shoulder board here :)
36.30 black solid 1-2? 2, misaligned
44.50 same as 36.30
44.50 red solid gold 0 double-leaf NOT addressed in any way, so not necessarily "Brigadier" (or any other) rank

--Cid Highwind 17:44, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

That's really cool! Two things though. The guys at the start of the episode, kicking the Zeon aren't SS, they are SA as is the solider who runs down the stairs just before Spock appears in his first SS uniform. I suggest we remove them from the chart above, if they are being included since the SA uniforms shouldnt be factored into this. Regarding McCoy (point number 2), his uniform and insignia should be listed under the German section (which it presently is) since his uniform is a recreation of a WWII era Colonel's uniform and not a uniform from Ekos. I will add a background note to clarify this. OH yeah, the announcer played by Bart LaRue is also SS, albeit in a brown Nazi shirt. He should be included above. -FleetCaptain 20:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. The problem with not mentioning the SA insignia is the fact that we would actually be "speculating" that the Ekosians are making a difference between SA and SS, and that they manage to use shoulder patches correctly in this case... ;)

An alternative approach, which I think I'd prefer, would be to make this a page about all kinds of different "Nazi uniforms", which would allow us to also have the remaining two or three shoulder patches on the same page. -- Cid Highwind 21:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SS General Patch

The one from 36.30/44.50 is apparently still not shown on this page? FWIW, I'm including an image of that patch here to eventually save it from deletion. -- Cid Highwind 10:10, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

That patch is shown already in the SS General section. The one you have here is actually not correct: the actual patch has the pips gold and slightly at an angle. It can be seen (very briefly) when an SS-General is heiling. The correct patch appears here: Image:FictionSSGenInsig.jpg and is worn here Image:SSGenHeil.jpg. The 44.50 patch is also included in the section on SS Generals here: Image:SSBrigRed.png. Thge entire section on SS Generals can be found here. -FC 12:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Revamping of entire article

I am revamping the entire article as we speak (type?). I plan to explain the uniforms in general and then divde by the uniform type. Then update the background section to include an insignia inconsistency section and then last but not least go through the pictures and repair everything (which you have already started). After that, I think this will be a fine example of a Featured Article. Am I missing anything? -FleetCaptain 21:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The German section is updated. I am going to research cuffbands, medical insignia (worn by McCoy) and the the shoulder strap lapel seen in "Killing Game" but for the most part this section has completely overhauled and is ready to go. The "in use" template was removed. -FleetCaptain 22:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

That's nice. I see that you're also uploading patches with a matching background color, now. One thing I'd like to suggest, we could change the background color of individual table cells itself, to get the correct color impression. As an example:
...on black ...on grey ...on brown ...on blue
Image:SS patch colonel.png Image:SS patch colonel.png Image:SS patch colonel.png Image:SS patch colonel.png
What do you think? -- Cid Highwind 22:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I leave that in your very capable hands. The scheme I used was enlisted SS on brown and the officer insignia I left as it was. I think the way it looks right now is pretty good, but by all means update things if you it can be made better. I am done for now. More to come over the next day or so. -FleetCaptain 22:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I did change back one of the pathces. The "Private Patch" needs to be on a blue and a brown background. When you replaced it with a single blue backgrounded patch, it messed up the color scheme in the German enlisted SS section. We need a brown one before that one gets deleted. -FleetCaptain 13:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Should be fixed now, please check. -- Cid Highwind 13:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Revamp complete

With my rewriting the entire background section, for my part the revamp is complete. Thanks to C.H. for his outstanding help. I will cool my jets for about a week, let others take a look and play with it, and then do some final editing for resubmittal as a Featured Article. Unless, of course, someone wants to be beat me too it. ;-) Thank you all! -FleetCaptain 21:00, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] about all the refit of this article

I just wanted to tell you, fleetcaptain+cid, that you have done a great job with this article. when you are done, i really think you should renominate this article for FA. :-) Jolan true, -- Rom Ulan 12:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your great comments. This article has actually in my view surpassed the Wikipedia SS ranks article. I have been watching that article for some time and it really is a tragedy. Wikipedia rescinded its copyright statement about rank insignia falling under public domain and as soon as they did that, internet sites claiming "copyright status" to SS insignia were cited and a lot of the Wikipedia SS insignia were deleted as copyright violations, in particular the ones on Wikipedia Commons which is a website I know virtually nothing about. As a result, the Wikipedia article has fallen into decline and from what I can see people are actually afraid to edit it for fear of being labeled as copyright violators. As for Memory Alpha, I did a large amount of research about SS insignia before I started working on this article and no agency or group can claim copyright to simple pictures of SS ranks and badges (they can to pictures of people wearing such insignia but that is a different ballgame). I also verified this with an Archivist at College Park, Maryland which is where the National Archives keeps SS service records, in case it is ever brought up. BTW- I'm all for the idea of a second FA nomination! :-) -FleetCaptain 15:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Opening quote

I tested the water with an opening quote. If its dumb or lame, I have no problem if someone cuts it back out. Just trying it out to see how it looked. -FleetCaptain 23:34, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article

"Ahhh, you HONOR us with Featured Article status!"

This page was nominated for Featured Article-status. It is now a Featured Article. This is the discussion, taken from the nomination-page.

[edit] SS uniforms and insignia

  • Renomination after an extensive overhaul and rewrite of the entire article. Article's first nomination can be found here. As a result, article was worked over with content added, insignia sections expanded, background section greatly expanded, and images touched up and redone thanks to the awesome work of User:Cid Highwind. With these additions, strongly recommend approval as a Featured Article. -FleetCaptain 17:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. The article has really been improved! -- Rom Ulan 17:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. Very well done.--31dot 23:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Support. The amount of work put into this article is staggering. It epitomizes the best of Memory Alpha. -- Connor Cabal 14:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - I liked it before but now its even better! – Cleanse 08:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you everyone for your support! I did move the FA notice to the bottom of the article since all the other articles in the category had that format. Thanks again, espeically to C.H. for the great work. -FleetCaptain 17:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

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