Talk:The Most Toys (episode)

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Contents 1 Episode talk page 1.1 Maintenance links 2 He was a man, take him for all in all: I shall not look upon his like again. 3 Data's Deception 3.1 Does it make any sense? 3.2 What does it tell us about him?

[edit] He was a man, take him for all in all: I shall not look upon his like again.

What is the book that Picard gave to Data that this quote is taken from?

Hamlet. SwishyGarak 03:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Judging from the size, I'd think it was Shakespeare's collected works. </pedantry> The quote, more interestingly, is a comment Hamlet makes about his deceased father Act One, Scene Two. Its context is appropriate to the episode, because it comes right before Hamlet is told that what had seemed a natural death was actually a murder. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by XMediaManX (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Data's Deception

[edit] Does it make any sense?

We can infer from Data lying to Riker about the cause of the disruptor's discharging (his attempt to kill Fajo) that Data is capable of lying. What was his motivation for lying? I can only think of embarrassment, or an attempt to avoid disciplinary action - neither of which makes sense. Did Data ever lie in any other episodes when there wasn't a tactical reason to do so? – Vivec 12:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe something really did happen in transport. That disruptor was a prototype, after all. SwishyGarak 17:18, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but even if Data had not fired, he was certainly about to do so. Also the scene with Riker is focused on the possibility that Data has lied. (That is to say, we are supposed to accept that it is at least possible.) First, there is the length of time the shot shows them looking at each other: to me, it seems Data is observing Riker's reaction to see if he has been believed. And then, and more plainly, there is Riker's expression as he watches Data leave and the skeptical look he shares with O'Brien. — XMediaManX 12:59, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

I agree — Data had no reasonable motive to lie. His imprisonment is, as he points out to Fajo, a hostile act in itself, and he is permitted to use lethal force in self-defense. Killing Fajo is in this situation the minimum use of force capable of overcoming the threat he presents: Data has only the disrupter for a weapon, and he can't lay hands on Fajo because of the force field he's using. Further, as a member of Starfleet, Data has a duty to attempt escape.

Fajo, too, should realize all this. He's clever, and Data has already explained to him, in obvious Data fashion, his "rules of engagement." Nevertheless, Fajo is confident that Data will judge it murder to kill him. Data — who in that earlier discussion didn't hesitate to correct Fajo's overly broad use of the term "murder" — seems to concede the point.

This seems to be one of those episodes where I find myself simply disagreeing with the moral stance of the writers. My guess is that, the way they read the situation, Data may not kill Fajo because his own life is not being threatened: the use of force wouldn't be proportionate, so it would be murder. But this is ludicrous: if he had to knock out a guard to escape, would he be compelled to wait until the guard had acquired and was about to employ the ability to incapacitate him?

At the same time, of course, it is satisfying to see Fajo's realization that Data intends to fire; and I think this was intended. "I cannot allow this to continue" is a statement that, whatever reasoning is behind it, is one the viewer is supposed to sympathize with or accept outright. So is the conclusion supposed to be a meditation on the limits of ethics? All I can say is that someone needs a class in remedial moral philosophy. — XMediaManX 12:59, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Irrelevant this is for discussing the article not anyone's opinions on how something went down in the episode. — Morder (talk) 13:36, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

[edit] What does it tell us about him?

Having beaten up on the writers in one area, I think they do deserve credit for developing Data's character in an interesting way. Let's pretend it makes sense that firing on Fajo is something Data would wish to conceal, and let's assume (as seems extremely probable) that he did in fact do it. That act and the exchange with Riker, then, show first that Data is capable of exceeding his programming even in the most fundamental matters; and, second, they show that he is capable of lying and disobedience to lawful authority.

It also shows that he is capable of forming and adhering to his own ideas about justice: evidently he deemed it just to fire on Fajo and unjust that he should be punished for doing so. Actually, disobedience based on one's own principles is something that he learned in The Offspring, from Picard, who explicitly teaches it to him as something proper to human beings. So actually that's all kind of cool. — XMediaManX 12:59, November 13, 2009 (UTC)